What happened on the Cross?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Are you guys ready? [00:00:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:03] Speaker C: He's like, let's do it. Let's get going. [00:00:05] Speaker A: Awesome. What's up, everybody? This is asking for a neighbor. We talk about God and Jesus and answer any questions you. Yes, you may have about God, Jesus, faith, and what it means to follow Jesus. I'm your host, sky, and I'm here with two of the pastors from Redemption Hill Church, Brad holcomb and Sean McCorkle. What a name. Today we're discussing the death and resurrection of Jesus. But first, let me ask y' all something. [00:00:32] Speaker B: That was an impeccable introduction, Sky. [00:00:37] Speaker A: I've done this a lot. When I write it down, it works a lot better. So the question I have for you guys is, first, twofold, two questions, a little bit different. But first, are you guys okay with using the bathroom in public? So, like, public restrooms? [00:00:53] Speaker C: We should have vetted these questions before. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Like, do y' all get, like, anxiety or whatever? Some people do. I do. I can't do it. I can't use public restrooms. [00:01:12] Speaker B: You can't use in. Wow. [00:01:15] Speaker A: I mean, I cannot. [00:01:16] Speaker B: It's not a question. [00:01:17] Speaker C: I thought was. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Mulligan. Mulligan. [00:01:20] Speaker C: I think. No, I don't like that. I don't like to. [00:01:22] Speaker B: You don't like at all. I was going to say, I mean, any with. I mean. And you don't like to use the restrooms, period. [00:01:29] Speaker A: Well, I was going to say, too. Yeah, obviously there's like, am I going to be the. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Am I going to be the one that has to have possibility of a juvenile joke of like. [00:01:36] Speaker C: No, no, you're good. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Number one or number two? You know, number one is easy, obviously, but for us, you know, But I don't know. Number two is obviously kind of. [00:01:46] Speaker B: So it's not that. So, you know, so. So number one, you have no issue. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, most of the time, no. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Number two, you have issue. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, but what about when a guy walks up to you, the stall next to you, you know, I'm gonna pee right next to you. You know, it's a little weird. [00:02:00] Speaker B: It is. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:02] Speaker B: Sean. Sean, you were the one who talked about washing your eyelids last time. [00:02:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:07] Speaker B: What do you mean? What kind of weird quirk do you have to answer this question? [00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:11] Speaker C: What do you mean? [00:02:12] Speaker A: This is too weird. [00:02:12] Speaker C: Come on. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Eyelid washer. [00:02:15] Speaker C: I don't think I have a weird quirk. I mean, it's. [00:02:17] Speaker B: You just don't go to the bathroom. [00:02:18] Speaker C: Who likes to go to the bathroom in public? [00:02:20] Speaker A: I mean, I think some people don't have a Problem with it. I don't think it's like, oh, I love this. That's not what we're saying. But, I mean, I don't have, like, [00:02:26] Speaker C: a problem with it. But if it's avoidable, that would be preferable. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Well, literally, yeah. We were talking earlier. [00:02:32] Speaker C: Wash my eyelids in public. [00:02:33] Speaker B: You just suffer through stomach cramps for an hour until you finish your meeting. [00:02:36] Speaker A: And then it's one of those situations where, like, someone walks into the bathroom and you're like, oh, I need to remain quiet. [00:02:41] Speaker C: You know what I mean? [00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah, y' all do that same thing. That's. That's kind of why I'm bringing that up. The second question is actually probably a little more serious. All right, here we go. But. But it's. I actually have this question myself. This is my. [00:02:54] Speaker B: This is an icebreaker. [00:02:54] Speaker A: This is still an icebreaker, but it might lead in. We'll see. But whenever you. This is going to be a practical question or I want a practical answer. When you're, like, getting to know somebody and you don't know if they're a believer. Can we just talk about a practical way, like, to be their friend? And basically the question would be, when do you guys. Because everyone's kind of different in this. When do you guys outright share the gospel? Or do you even. And then just kind of like, let. Let God do his work in the relationship? [00:03:31] Speaker B: You talking about, like, when people come into the bathroom while you're using it? [00:03:33] Speaker A: 100%, yeah. They might enter the stall and you're like, what are you doing, dude? Here's the gospel, you know? I'm just kidding. That doesn't happen. [00:03:41] Speaker B: That's a good question. [00:03:42] Speaker C: Go ahead. [00:03:45] Speaker B: Could you summarize the question just succinctly? [00:03:47] Speaker A: What is your timeline? Or do you even have a timeline when you're going to share the gospel with someone? [00:03:55] Speaker C: Like, relationally. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Relationally. That's a good way to put it. Relationally. Do you have that in your head, man? [00:04:02] Speaker B: I don't know that I think about it in the sense of there's some set formula for every person. I feel like it's different for person to person. And Brad passed the test, the relationship that I have with the person. So, like, we have neighbors who are not followers of Jesus, and some of them I've started to share the gospel with, and some of them I've prayed for or talked about church with. And, you know, I think you just kind of. I don't know, man. I feel like for me personally, there's. I want to always be Challenging myself to share more than I do and sooner and, you know, but I think. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've experienced different practices of it. Like, you know, in seminary, there was a. Took an evangelism class and. Have you taken that yet, Sean? Okay. Like, one of our assignments was you had to go out and share the gospel with so many people. And so we just, like, went to Sundance Square and we just went up to people and shared the gospel. And that was an awesome experience. It was really, really challenging. And I think there's a time and a place for that form of evangelism. And then I think there's a time and a place for have a relationship with somebody. And there's a little bit more of, like, an artistry to it. You know, I think that the key that I always want to keep in the back of my mind is, like, you're talking to a person. Like, this is not a checklist thing where you should think about it. Like, there are some sort of a project. [00:05:20] Speaker A: But like Mormons, right? They do that. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. [00:05:24] Speaker A: They're good business people. That's the reason. Yeah, they're good at selling. [00:05:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:28] Speaker C: So that's what I think, anyway. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah, man, that's awesome. That's a good answer. [00:05:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. I think just piggyback off that, some similar thought process over time. I feel like early on there was much more of a, gosh, I just got to share the gospel. And then when I didn't share the gospel, I'd feel like, weighed down by it. Kind of this back and forth, like, okay, I shared the gospel. I'm good. And then if I didn't, it's like shame kind of thing. Um, and. And so I obviously, like Brad said, it's like, well, we want to share the gospel for sure. But I think. I think what. I've More of a holistic approach. And what I mean by that is you're. The goal is not just to share the gospel, but to serve and love people, to engage with them as human beings. Yeah, to be. I think there's a. There's a broader picture in scripture of the. The church being a witness to a lost and dying world. And that is certainly witnessing the truth of the gospel. But it is also more than just speaking the words. It's how we interact with people, how we interact with one another. They will know me by your love, how you love one another. I don't remember exactly where that is. What is that? John 10, John 11, something like that. But it's that kind of idea where we are not just trying to share the gospel. Okay. Mission accomplished. But we want to be a witness to Christ in all of life. So that means engaging people relationally. And like Brad said, certain contexts, you don't have a relationship with that person, but maybe you feel the Lord leading you to witness the gospel. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:07:11] Speaker C: I've had situations like that. Like on an airplane with a Catholic priest. I remember years ago. It was great conversation. I'm not going to interact with that guy or a Jehovah's Witness a few months ago. Yeah. I'm going to be much more intentional with getting to the gospel right away, but in with my neighbors, sure, I want to do that, But I also want to be just a faithful neighbor. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Great. That's an awesome. That's a good answer. Good answer. Yeah. I think you get kind of this weird. I mean, the Holy Spirit kind of, like, can talk to you in certain moments where you're like, oh, I need to say something, you know? [00:07:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:48] Speaker A: It's such a cool feeling. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:49] Speaker A: I don't think it happens a lot for me. So that's why I brought the question up, because of my little barber interaction, you know? [00:07:58] Speaker C: That's a good point. I think oftentimes we're not. And I can think about that cyclically in my life. Like, there's times where I'm not very sensitive to that because I'm just focused on other things. And sure, I will go periods of time without sharing the gospel or really thinking much about it. And so I do think there's this element of we should be eager not only to share the gospel, but I think having a heart that desires people to come to know the Lord. The end goal is not just sharing the gospel. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:26] Speaker C: Being really prayerful. Spirit of God, please move and save, you know, my dad, my. This family, my neighbor, my friend and that. If that prayerful disposition is part of your regular life, then you're in. I think you're in a much better place to be more intentional as conversations come up than when you're just kind of going through the motions. [00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:47] Speaker C: And relying on your own flesh. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Right. Is that Mike uncomfortable? Do you want to move that up or something? I'm just. It's up to you. [00:08:53] Speaker C: I feel like I'm trapped. [00:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Moving around. No, I would be. [00:08:56] Speaker C: Like, I didn't realize it until you said it, but now I feel trapped. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Sorry, dude. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Yeah, man. [00:09:02] Speaker A: I agree with what you just said. I also think, like, I didn't even really Say the gospel, like to my barber, you know, yet. But I've, I like, mentioned, okay, I believe in God, I go to church. Do you believe in God? That type of thing. So it's almost like the, what do you call that? The entry layer? I don't know, the base layer or whatever. And I feel great. I feel like, because God, in the moment, I was like, man, I feel like I need to say something here because he was telling me about some weird things that were happening to him. And I think it was great, but it wasn't an all outright. Here's my three minute spiel on the gospel. Yeah, and that's why, that's why the question came up. It's like such a crazy dance, you know, we do for that. And God is like, just works. So that's really cool. We can move on to the question. [00:09:45] Speaker C: It's such a good learning experience as well. When you, when you get those opportunities, it's like, yeah, I've stumbled so many times in trying to share the gospel. I leave just being like, did I even, did I get the gospel right? I don't even know if I got it right. But it is a, it's an encouraging experience where there's just, by God's grace, there's a, there's a boldness. So rejoice in any of that. But I think also just like reflecting back, okay, how can I be more clear and more prayerful as well? Like you having that conversation if it just ends like that and you don't think about it again? I think that to an extent, there's some room for growth. But if it's like, man, I had the opportunity to share with this guy, I want to share more. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:25] Speaker C: And that leads you to be intentionally prayerful about that for this gentleman. And I think that's, that's great. That's the Lord not only hopefully working in him, but working in you through it. [00:10:35] Speaker A: Oh, 100%. I feel it. I was encouraged because this morning I went on my little walk and I was thinking about him because I was about to go get a haircut. So I was like, oh, I wonder if he, you know, what his walk with God looks like. [00:10:46] Speaker B: You know, it's really encouraging, dude, thanks, man. I think that, yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about the sovereignty of God, you know, at Redemption Hill, and like, just the reality that he's in control of everything. He's working in all things. He's already working in the hearts of the people that we desire to share with. And so there can Be a lot of rest in that. Of, like, you're not the initiator in this person's life. You know, you can come alongside to be a part of what he's already doing in their heart. The fact that he prepared that conversation for you. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. [00:11:16] Speaker B: And for him in advance, that you just kind of got to come alongside and participate with the father's work is really encouraging. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And his demeanor was kind of different in a good way. I was like, wow, this is crazy. You know? [00:11:27] Speaker C: Yeah. I think people want to have those conversations. We just, I think, often struggle to get over the hump. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:33] Speaker C: Even open the door to those conversations. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I got to tell them, like, I'm going to go record a podcast for my church. And that was another, like, good. You know what I mean? [00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:41] Speaker A: So shout out to this, you know, podcast. Let's go. So we want to know what happened to Jesus on the cross. We have some other questions lined up as well. I can't remember the order we decided, [00:11:56] Speaker C: so we'll start with that one. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Start with that one. [00:11:59] Speaker B: This is teeing up. Good Friday, Easter, man. It's Holy Week. And so we were thinking about the final week of Jesus life on earth, leading to his death on the cross, his resurrection from the grave, and. Yeah. Starting with the cross. [00:12:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker B: What happened to Jesus on the cross? [00:12:15] Speaker A: Happened to Jesus on the cross. [00:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's lots of discussion we could have here. And I think what I'm. You tell me what you think about this. I want to give a really brief historical perspective on some common ways of viewing this. And I am certainly not an expert on any of this, so I'm going to be brief for brevity's sake, but also because I'm just not an expert in these areas. But talk about that, and then we can kind of parse through a little bit of that, if it's helpful, and then we'll kind of land on where we. What we believe the Scriptures teach. [00:12:54] Speaker B: Should we give a very brief summary statement up front? Say this is what we believe the Scriptures teach about what happened to Jesus on the cross at the beginning or at the end? [00:13:05] Speaker C: Why not leave people in suspense? [00:13:06] Speaker A: We could. We could wait for the end. I think we could give some context up to this point. So what happened to Jesus on the cross? He died. [00:13:14] Speaker C: Right. Okay. [00:13:14] Speaker A: That's a physical evidence thing, not necessarily the rest that we believe after the fact. He was killed by his government. Right. We in agreements on that or no? [00:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:25] Speaker B: The Romans crucified him. [00:13:26] Speaker A: There we go, the Romans crucified him, not his government. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. It wasn't his government, but that's what happened. [00:13:32] Speaker B: The Jewish leaders put him on trial. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Right. There you go. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Betrayed by his friend. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Boom. That's what I was getting at. Some context there. And then we can talk about. [00:13:39] Speaker C: So we can. Yeah, we can go into some of the historical stuff first if we want to look at that. [00:13:42] Speaker A: That's where I thought you were. [00:13:43] Speaker C: And then land kind of. Because I was more moving towards, like, theories on the atonement. Because that's what you asked, like, yeah, you're right. Why did Jesus die on the cross? [00:13:51] Speaker A: I said, what happened to Jesus on the cross? And it could be a very practical question. Or it could also be, hey, what do we believe as Christians? [00:13:58] Speaker B: I was going to say, what if we just. Yeah, what if we began with just a. Let's clearly articulate what the Bible teaches about what happened to Jesus on the cross. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Great. [00:14:05] Speaker B: We get to theories and things like that. [00:14:07] Speaker C: Okay. [00:14:09] Speaker B: I would say not. I would say so. One of the most clear verses, I think, in the Bible that Discusses this is Second Corinthians. Second Corinthians 5, 21, says, For God, for he made him Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Okay. So in essence, the word substitution, I think, is a really helpful summary of what happened to Jesus on the cross. Jesus took our place for our sins on the cross, and in exchange, when we trust in him, we are given his righteousness. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Nice. That's it. [00:14:51] Speaker B: A whole lot to elaborate on. [00:14:52] Speaker A: And, Brad, that was awesome. [00:14:53] Speaker B: But I think that statement, God in our place. [00:14:56] Speaker A: We aim to preach the gospel once, at least on this podcast, every episode. Yep, There we go. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the good news. [00:15:01] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:15:02] Speaker B: Yep. [00:15:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. First Peter 2, 24 says, he, being Jesus himself, bore our sins in his body on the tree. It's all over the scriptures. Jesus. So that is why Jesus died, to bear our sins and ultimately to reconcile us to God. So, yeah, I mean, historically, there's lots of. If we want to get into that a little bit, we can. There's a lot of debate. I shouldn't say. I don't know. Debate's probably the right word over the last few centuries as to whether Jesus even died on the cross historically. And I think there's a lot of good work that's been done. NT Wright, William Lane Craig, Mike Lacona. Other people that have, I think, primarily looked at it from a historical perspective and really nailed that down, that it's the most plausible reality. Not only that Jesus died under Pontius Pilate, that's well attested. Most everybody agrees with that historically. But that there was the empty tomb, which we'll get to I think here in a bit. Question was why Jesus died on the cross. Remind me. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Or what happened to Jesus on the cross? Yeah, we've. We've. [00:16:17] Speaker C: He. He bore our sins. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's what, that's what happened. [00:16:21] Speaker C: Yes. But that's not what everybody believes. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker C: So I think it's helpful. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Everyone who's everyone throughout church history. Okay. [00:16:29] Speaker C: Much of Christianity today does not believe that. [00:16:31] Speaker A: Right. Okay. [00:16:32] Speaker C: Not much of professing Christianity. [00:16:33] Speaker B: They don't believe. This is a continuation of a conversation we were having before the podcast started, which is awesome. So, Sean, you're saying. Are you saying that there are Christians who do not believe that he bore our sins? [00:16:46] Speaker C: Yes. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Or that he bore the wrath of God. [00:16:49] Speaker C: That's a specific conversation. That's why I was saying maybe it might be helpful to go back a little bit and just give some context because we're still dealing with some of these ways of viewing what Jesus did on the cross today, like in progressive Christianity in some streams. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:03] Speaker C: So just for example, real brief, you've got people. They were. I think it goes back beyond this, but it was called Socinianism around the time of the Reformation who believed that Jesus's death on the cross was merely an example. So they actually look at passages that I just read First Peter. I think it's First Peter 2. 21. For to this you have been called because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example so that you might follow in his footsteps. So they'll grab onto passages like that [00:17:41] Speaker A: and really make say that's the sole reason. [00:17:44] Speaker C: That's the primary reason that Jesus died. Not to pay for our sins, but to give us an example to live by. [00:17:51] Speaker A: It's funny because it's the opposite. Right. He did it and then it turns out it is an example. [00:17:55] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Not that it was the example. [00:17:57] Speaker C: Well, that's what Peter is definitely saying that. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, he's just saying that's an example, guys. [00:18:02] Speaker C: How we should live, how we should be self sacrificial. Sure. But he says a few verses after that, in verse 24, he himself bore our sins in his body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. [00:18:15] Speaker A: Literally the next. What? So how do they believe that? [00:18:18] Speaker C: Well, I mean, this is. We all, I think, are Prone to doing this. At times we snatch verses out of context and we. Okay, this is what the text says. It says that Jesus died to be our example. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:31] Speaker C: But I think this, as we look at just a couple of these examples of how the atonement's viewed, there is a common theme, I think, and it turns what Jesus did into something that's really primarily about us. Meaning that, okay, Jesus did this, this thing where he died, apparently for us to follow as his example. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:54] Speaker C: So the, so the call then the good news, which is no good news at all, of course. Right. Is that, hey, yeah, we're. Because they would acknowledge people that would believe this kind of reality is that, yeah, of course, humanity's fallen human. Humans need to be, you know, walking in a different way. It's like Jesus's example is so astounding and amazing that we just behold that example and now we are empowered to go and live this sacrificial life and then somehow by doing so, we can be right with God. I mean, obviously, that's a purely workspace. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to say it's [00:19:32] Speaker C: workspace that's not historic Christianity. But there is a large group of people that have followed that as well as today. There is a decent stream of Protestantism, liberal Protestantism, that would not hold to the fact that Jesus's death on the cross is an atonement for sin. And so I think, I do think these are, these are realities that we still live with. So that's an, that's a kind of an example. There's other example view. There's also people that would hold to Jesus's death being just a demonstration of God's love. So it's a, it's a, it's such an amazing demonstration of God's love. It's not a payment for sin, it's not an atonement for sin, but it's such an amazing demonstration of God's love that when people look upon it, then they're. They're changed by it. So it's like as if they don't [00:20:26] Speaker A: sin anymore or something. Yeah, it's. [00:20:28] Speaker C: It's what needs to be, what needs to be overcome. I've heard somebody articulate it this way. What needs to be overcome is not our sin, but it's a fear of God. It's like a. We're, we're terrified of God because He's holy. Oh, so God demonstrating his love for [00:20:44] Speaker A: us in Christ, we're no longer terrified. [00:20:46] Speaker C: It gets over the fear not over this sin problem that we have with God. [00:20:50] Speaker A: It's a weird one. [00:20:51] Speaker C: I mean, it kind of makes sense. I think to an extent, if, Especially if you have a perspective that sin's not that big of a deal. What we need is just to be inspired by God's love. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Oh, gotcha. [00:21:02] Speaker C: Not reconciled to God. We just need to be inspired so that we can. That's what I'm saying. All of these kind of terminate on. What can we. What do we need to do in order to respond and be, you know, pursuing God in the right way? [00:21:16] Speaker A: Right. Well, I want to ask you, Brad, where are you at with this, this conversation we're having? [00:21:22] Speaker B: I. I think that the. Just the whole idea of, you know, what we're. What we're summarizing as God in our place, God took our place. Like, so God himself, the Son of God, left heaven, was sent by the Father, came to earth, took on human flesh, lived the perfect life that we could not live and died in our place for our sins. Like Sean said, in order to bring us back to God. I mean, that's, you know, same book, Sean. But first, Peter 3, 18, which is the passage for Good Friday. So if you're gonna come to Good Friday service, shout out. This is the sermon for. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous, for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God. [00:22:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker B: So that. That's the summary of what Jesus did on the cross. He brought us to God through his death. And that's why it's good news. It's not. You're right, man. Like, you know, if the cross is merely an example, it's not good news because we fail miserably at living up to that example. But if the good news is that Christ did for me what I could never and could and will never do, that he paid the penalty that I deserve to pay, and that he's brought me back to God through his work, then it's really good news. And I was just going to say that that theme runs all throughout the Bible. This idea of atonement, of God providing a sacrifice for sin in order to bring his people to him and to forgive them of their sins is all of the Old Testament sacrificial system is that. And it's ultimately pointing to this sacrifice that Jesus made. That's what all of the Old Testament sacrificial system is pointing to that. [00:22:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:58] Speaker B: That one day God would send his Messiah to be the final and ultimate sacrifice for sinners. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's crazy. In the Old Testament you have all these goats and Whatever, getting sacrificed. But somehow they believe that Jesus being sacrificed is just an example, you know? [00:23:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:14] Speaker A: You know what I mean, it just like all leads up to this moment and they're like, ah, that's not it. [00:23:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it. So I think it's helpful to think about this because like I said, it's still prevalent today, but to just kind of try to think about it. People don't like to think that humanity is as bad as humanity really is. And so when you have. What I mean by that is, in God's sight, we are sinful, broken, fallen creatures. God loves us. Obviously, that's why he sent his son into the world. But there is a weightiness to the reality of we are beyond saving ourselves. And I think the natural, if we're honest with ourselves, apart from God's spirit and God's grace working in us, there is that thing in us that doesn't like that reality, that we don't have the ability to reconcile ourselves to God. So if we. I mean, yes, what you're saying, obviously it is crazy because the scriptures are just so abundantly clear about this reality. But I think thinking about it like somebody that's not converted, that is trying to figure out who God is and what this life looks like, I guess for me it just makes more sense that these kind of things can come about because it's the natural religion of man to figure out a way of making ourselves good enough to be before God. And that's why Christianity is so radically different. It says there's nothing we can do. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Other religions are like the opposite of that. Whether it's like us fixing it. [00:24:48] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look. I mean, look at, you know, anything from Islam to to Buddhism. Obviously they're very different. But at the end, the final analysis, it's not God coming down to do what's necessary to reconcile us to himself. It's us in some way. In Islam, it's. It's enough obedience. In Buddhism, maybe it's enough meditation. It's enough separation from the world. It's still ultimately us doing something to reconcile ourselves in Christianity. Biblical Christianity is so radically different, but it shouldn't be surprising that we have so many streams within historic Christianity that totally butcher that reality. And today the same reality exists because it's the natural way that we tend to process things in the world. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Have y'. All, Have y' all talked to people, other Christians that, like, believe this, or do we know it from, like, other scholars that have obviously talked about these other beliefs where there wasn't an atonement. There was an example. [00:25:51] Speaker C: That's a good question. Yeah. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was thinking even, like, in, like, Roman Catholicism, there's an element of participation in. With God's grace. And what we're saying is that the payment that we deserve, the penalty that we deserved, has been completely, completely paid. Right? Like, that's. So that. That's the good news, that Jesus. What Jesus did is. Is final and sufficient for all those things you didn't ask about, that you asked about if we knew. I mean, I. I certainly know people who, you know. I mean, I know people who don't believe that Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross. [00:26:25] Speaker A: I mean, y' all are about to go. What is that called? Liberia. Where y'. All. Where y' all going? What are y' all doing? You're not going to Liberia. What's it called? [00:26:32] Speaker B: You're going to Orlando? [00:26:33] Speaker C: You're going to Orlando. [00:26:34] Speaker A: What's it called? What's it called? [00:26:35] Speaker B: Library. [00:26:35] Speaker C: Ligonier. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Ligonier. See, there's an L there. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Dude. [00:26:38] Speaker A: I was like, what is this place? Y' all are going to Ligonier or whatever. There's probably people there that may believe that, right? Or. [00:26:44] Speaker B: No, not there. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Okay. No. All right. Well, I'm just asking because, like, have you talked to other people? Like, seminary? You know what? [00:26:52] Speaker C: Not necessarily in seminary, because the seminary I go to is. Is historically grounded and still fortunately historically grounded. But it's. I talk to people all the time that it's cultural Christianity. And again, that's what I'm saying. This is the natural man's religion. They may not have, you know, they may not articulate exactly how The Socinians did 500 years ago, but it does come down to a similar reality of us, God being an example and us just trying to follow this example, whatever that may be. But we see it all the time. Yes. I mean, and I think this is why this is an important discussion, because all these things were articulated and the things that Brad keeps hammering on. This is how people are reconciled to God. And so it doesn't matter if somebody says, yeah, I'm a Christian, and then they go on to articulate. I try to do my best and follow and be a pretty good person, and I'm a pretty good person. That's not Christianity. So just as another example, historically, in a hundred years ago, when this was. This kind of debate was really raging and just causing all kinds of issues in the American church. Jay Gresham Machen wrote a book called Christianity and liberalism, Liberalism being the reality of basically denying historic biblical Christianity, denying miracles, denying the atonement, denying the. A variety of things, a virgin birth. So it's not. It's not just this idea of the atonement, but what he was articulating was people were saying, okay, well, this is your view of Christianity. This is their view of Christianity. And you. You kind of have conservative and liberal Christianity in these. These streams that I just articulated. So don't think politically liberal necessarily. This is theologically liberal. He's saying it's Christianity and liberalism. It's not. These aren't within the same streams. This is a different religion. [00:28:47] Speaker A: I see. [00:28:48] Speaker C: So people that say, I'm a Christian, yet they don't hold to what. What Brad's articulated multiple times about this reality of Christ dying for our sins and paying the penalty that we deserve and us trusting in him. If that's not at the core of their Christianity, the Bible would say that that person's not a Christian. And I think that's a very prevalent thing in our day and helpful for us to wrestle with as we're seeking to evangelize and minister to other people. Them just saying, hey, I'm a Christian. Well, what does that mean to you? You know, what do you. So I've had lots of conversations like that, to answer your question, where it's led to, you know, maybe some awkwardness and trying to articulate. Now, I'm not saying, oh, you're not a Christian, but I'm. In my mind, I'm real, okay. This guy or this person is. Is not believing the historic faith. So let's go more. Let's go into more details about who Jesus is and what he's done and not just assuming, oh, they said they're a Christian. Great. You know, does that make sense? [00:29:43] Speaker A: That does make sense. Yeah. We are in Texas, like the middle of the Bible Belt. So it makes sense that you might have a lot of cultural Christians. You know, I'm. I'm more. I was surprised if someone would actually articulate, like, I don't believe Jesus dying for us is the atonement. I believe it's an example. And I was surprised that people would actually, like, say that. But it's more. You're more going along the line of they are a cultural Christian and they are more. They're more on the liberalism side, like you're saying. So they must not believe. [00:30:17] Speaker C: I'm just saying that there's a lot of people that they may not articulate it. Like, yeah, Jesus is my example. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:30:22] Speaker C: I think when you really get down to it, that is a. That is a prevalent thing. [00:30:27] Speaker A: That makes sense. [00:30:27] Speaker C: Culture. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. [00:30:29] Speaker B: Our sin is so serious that somebody, God himself had to pay the price for it. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:34] Speaker B: For us to be right with Him. The only other side of the coin, obviously, and living in Texas. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Is. And I, man, I used to think this way for sure. You know, so the cross, like what Jesus did on the cross is not primarily and. Or certainly not exclusively an example. But, you know, this idea of substitution that Christ became sin on our behalf, the second half of that is equally as important, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. So his perfect life, his righteousness is credited to us forever, which leads to a changed life. So you will get on the other side of the coin of this. Like, yeah, I know Jesus died for my sins. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Like, he. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah, like, I believe that. But there's no change. There's no desire for change. There's no desire to like, actually love God and, and love his word and obey him by the power of the Spirit. And like, it's. You know, the cross is not just for forgiveness. It's transformational. Like it. When we look upon the cross and Jesus cross like this, that's the me. The primary means by, I think, by which the Spirit uses to change us, to make us more like Jesus. So it is an example in that regard. And I think that's what Peter's hitting at 100%. [00:31:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, that's well said. That's. Let's. Let me just read the, the first Peter text that we've alluded to or quoted a few times. Let me just read all three of those verses together because what. What Brad's saying is, is super important and we see that. I probably see what you just described more than the other thing in my own personal experience. But just listen how Peter, he doesn't separate these things. Yes, it's the atonement. He doesn't use the word atonement in this particular text, but it's Christ bearing our sins that then it's transformational. There's no potential for separation within these two. So first Peter 2, 21, 24. For to this you have been called. And I think the context here. He's basically trying to encourage them in their suffering. For to this you've been called because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin. Neither was deceit found in his mouth when he was reviled. He did not revile in return. When he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree that or so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds, you have been healed. This reality of Christ dying for us and that being where our hope is, that's where our righteousness is. At the same time that. That leading necessarily to not just, you know, living a more moral life, but a radically changed life. You're changed from the inside out. You can actually now, just like Christ did, give your life up for the good of others. He can genuinely be your example when you are changed by his grace. [00:33:47] Speaker B: And we're healed. Like, we're healed from the worst disease, which is sin. Yeah, I mean, I've heard people use that, use that verse to justify like, kind of a health, wealth, prosperity thing, like Jesus. Because Jesus died on the cross, like, you're healed, so declare your healing over your physical. It's like, that's not at all. He's talking about being healed from sin. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker B: And. [00:34:05] Speaker A: And anyways, well, maybe we can take a step back real quick. And I kind of want to ask you guys, you know, how do we know Jesus died and rose? One could be also twofold to just why would God do that? And I think obviously we've definitely talked a couple times already about what it is, what the gospel is, why he did it, and giving the verses in Peter. But I think people might still have the question of just like, leading up to this moment, how was that the answer versus something else? Basically, because it's not the first time in the Bible where someone was going to be sacrificed. But I would say it's the first time where it's followed through with, so [00:34:57] Speaker B: why did God do it that way? And then how do we know historically that Jesus died and rose? [00:35:01] Speaker A: So let's. [00:35:03] Speaker B: I'll start with the why God did it that way. So Romans 3 says that the wages of sin is death. I'm sorry, is that Romans 6? I think it's Romans. Romans 3, Romans 6. Okay. [00:35:16] Speaker A: We're all human guys. [00:35:17] Speaker B: The wages of sin is death. Again, to go back to, you know, from the very beginning of the Bible, in Genesis 3, when the first sin, which sin is a rejection of God and his commands. Okay, so like, when the first sin is committed by Adam and Eve through the temptation of Satan, it's the first time in creation where blood is shed and blood is shed. That blood being shed through the animal sacrifice was the gift of God to Adam and Eve to cover them of their sins, to be a foreshadowing of what Jesus would eventually do on the cross. So, again, all of the Old Testament sacrificial system points to that. That sin, because God is holy and good and pure, and sin is evil and causes destruction to all that's good and pure and beautiful. The. The wages of it is death. It's blood. Blood is the means by which one is. Who is a sinner is forgiven of their sin. [00:36:19] Speaker A: But it couldn't be another animal. It had to be Jesus. That's kind of where I'm. [00:36:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, it had to be Jesus. Yeah. Because for us to be fully and finally reconciled to God, as Sean's saying, the sacrament, I mean, it had to be. Had to be human. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:34] Speaker B: And, you know, the loss of an animal life, the sacrifice of an animal was never going to be sufficient to completely, you know, forgive us of sin and reconcile us to God. We're human. We needed a human sacrifice, but not merely a human. Needed to be fully God and fully man. And that's the person of Jesus. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Wow. [00:36:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good answer. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:00] Speaker C: I think it was Athanasius that said something along the lines of what hasn't been assumed can't be healed. And that was in the conversation about Jesus needing to be fully God and fully man. It's just when you really think about it, it's just amazing, wonderful reality. If Jesus was just a mere human being being able to bear the penalty for sin, not just for himself, I mean, obviously he wasn't a sinner, but I just mean, in general, as just a human being, he wouldn't even have been able to bear the penalty for himself, much less the entire human race. And so the necessity of God being of Jesus being fully God is inherently present in the reality that he has bore our sins. The Scriptures testify to that over and over again and all throughout the Old Testament, that God is the one who is going to provide salvation for his people, not something else. It's God who is going to save. And that happens in the person of Jesus. So you could spend your entire life just pondering that reality of what happened on the cross and who Jesus is, and just never quite fully grasped the amazing realities that. That exist in the person and work of Jesus. It's amazing. [00:38:23] Speaker A: Yeah. So then how do we. And then the next question would just be, how do we know that that happened? Maybe. Maybe historical evidence, maybe biblical evidence. Those are both historical, but I think you understand what I meant. By the difference? Maybe just the accounts we have, you know, but. Yeah, how do we know? [00:38:43] Speaker C: What do you think Brad would be like? What do you think people struggle with the most in wrestling through those kind of questions? [00:38:52] Speaker B: Historical questions? [00:38:54] Speaker A: Just. Just like, which part of that. Which part of that disturb. Yeah, which part of my questions would people struggle with the most? [00:39:01] Speaker B: Man, I don't. I don't think I'm thinking about one myself as a non Christian at age 20, like, wrestling with some of these things I don't know that I've ever read. Maybe you guys have. Or come across somebody saying that they don't believe that there was a historical man named Jesus of Nazareth who actually lived and who died under Pontius Pilate. I feel like that's like, pretty historically agreed upon. [00:39:24] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. There, of course, are few people that still hold that that's not the case, but that broadly across. I was listening to something from Mike Lacona, who's a New Testament scholar and historian, that it's very. It's like a. Extremely. There's like 99.9% of scholars that are in agreement, even if they're, you know, not Christians. Those things you just said are. Are true. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Historically verified. [00:39:51] Speaker C: Yeah, that. That wasn't the case. Maybe 50 years ago. There was a lot more skepticism. Yeah. Anymore. [00:39:57] Speaker A: We've had a lot of, like, deciphering of the Elder Sea Scrolls, specifically Isaiah being like, exactly the same as it was like thousands of years before. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the crucifixion, the. The historicity of Jesus, life and death seems to be pretty unanimously agreed upon, regardless of whether the historian's Christian or not. I think the resurrection obviously is a stumbling block for some folks who are just like, I believe he lived, I believe he died. I don't believe he rose from the grave. Which has been the case since it happened. Like in the Bible, we see evidence of that of like, you know, the soldiers who come to the tomb and the tomb is empty and they're like, hey, let's say that the disciples stole the body. So that's. [00:40:36] Speaker C: Do they say that or do they go and tell the. The Jewish leaders and then they pay them? [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what it was. Yes. [00:40:42] Speaker C: I think is what happens. [00:40:43] Speaker B: That's. That's what it is. But, but the rumor. But the rumor. The conspiracy has been. Has been there for. For, you know, since Christ rose from the grave. [00:40:50] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:40:51] Speaker B: I think there's that. So there are people who don't. Who struggle to believe in the historical resurrection and then. But, dude, I do Hear people sometimes who say, I believe that Jesus died, that he rose from the grave, but they're still not Christians, which I think leads to just all sorts of other possibilities of what's actually happening. And I think fundamentally, this is me putting the theology hat on for a second, for a moment. Like, it's just the reality of sin. Like, somebody can be. You can try your best to convince somebody utterly that Jesus really did rise from the dead. And if their heart is not changed by the power of the Spirit, they're still not going to believe it. [00:41:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Or they're going to believe it intellectually, but they're not going to embrace him as their savior. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. [00:41:38] Speaker C: That's got to only be a huge issue because of postmodernism. [00:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:42] Speaker C: Like you, I. Sure. I believe that's true, but it's not. It's still not true for me. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Especially. Especially if it requires your repentance. [00:41:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker B: I think that's where the, you know, when you get to the point where you're like, hey, you know, somebody's like, I believe Jesus rose from the dead. And then it's like, all right, well, here's how you respond. You have to repent. You have to. You have to turn from being your own God, from living for yourself, and you have to embrace him as your Savior and Lord, like, we just on our own, will never do that. [00:42:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:12] Speaker A: I've talked to a couple people that believe. They don't necessarily believe it, but they said they posed this as, like, a theory because they didn't. I don't know if they believe. They never said they believe. If they believe he died and rose again, but they said, what if he was just, like, passed out? They literally would pose that. Because they're like, he was in shock. [00:42:30] Speaker B: You just don't understand. They don't understand Roman crucifixion. [00:42:33] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, because you. If you look at it, you're like these guys. There's no way he wasn't dead. And they would make sure, you know, it was brutal. It's similar to, like, Japanese culture, how they did crucifixions, you know, in a similar way. [00:42:47] Speaker C: So I haven't heard about that. [00:42:49] Speaker A: So they. Well, they would put you on a cross as well, but it would be in water. It just depends. Torture. More torture. But when. When Catholics were trying to, like, reach Japan, that was big. From. Oh, my gosh. This is. I'm not a. I'm not a historian person from Portugal. What's from where? From somewhere there's a movie about it. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Book, book, book made into a movie, right? [00:43:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Yes, yes, exactly. It's. It's a. Interesting movie. It's not that great of a movie from a movie standpoint, but it kind of shows some of that stuff that they dealt with the persecution of them in Japan. [00:43:25] Speaker C: You were going to say something about Roman crucifixion. [00:43:28] Speaker B: You just. You couldn't survive it. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker B: I mean, if you go back and read, like, I'm, you know, obviously I'm studying for Good Friday service, so, like, I'm going to quote a physician who actually talks about what happened to Jesus body on the cross and you. You would not survive it. It was intended to be public and excruciating and slow but final. Like, they did not crucify people with the, like, even the. The notional thought that that person could potentially survive. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:55] Speaker B: They died. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:57] Speaker B: And historically we. I mean, Jesus was struck in the side with a spear and so just to prove the finality of his death. So. Yeah, that. That one. That one feels easy. [00:44:10] Speaker A: No, it is. And it's like. It's like, just with recent, like modern, I guess what experts and stuff that'll come out and say, like, some of the amazing things the body can do. [00:44:20] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:44:21] Speaker A: You know, not when you're. And then they'll. [00:44:22] Speaker C: I know. [00:44:23] Speaker B: You know, it's crazy. And moves the stone himself and. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. There's no way he would have any strength at all even if that were the case. [00:44:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:32] Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter if your body's in shock and his heartbeat was so slow or whatever. I'm like, there's nothing. He wouldn't be able to get up, dude. You know, there's no way without help, you know? So who went in? No one. Yeah, right. [00:44:45] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, that. That. What's the word? That claim is still present, but I think it's lost a lot of steam. [00:44:56] Speaker A: That's good. [00:44:57] Speaker C: He's talking about. Yeah, there's. There's other ones as well. [00:45:00] Speaker A: What about the. What about the little. What is it the sheet that covered him or whatever? You know, there's turn. The shroud of turn. Have you all looked into that at all? [00:45:07] Speaker C: Let's not go down that you don't want to. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Come on, man. We're. [00:45:11] Speaker C: I mean. Yeah, okay. Maybe it's real, maybe it's not. It doesn't change anything. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Nice. There you go. [00:45:15] Speaker B: Cool. [00:45:16] Speaker A: We can move on now. I thought it would be more interesting. [00:45:19] Speaker B: I think it's cool. [00:45:19] Speaker A: It's Cool. [00:45:20] Speaker B: My cards on the table. I think it's really cool. But I'm with you. I'm like, even if it were, it doesn't verify false. It doesn't matter. There's plenty. There's plenty of historical evidence. [00:45:29] Speaker C: I'm happy to talk about it. I just think it. I think it's a. It's not a rabbit trail you want to get. [00:45:34] Speaker A: Well, Sean, we always like to make it a little bit more light hearted, too, so we're just trying. [00:45:37] Speaker B: CS Lewis had a shroud of turn in his office. I think. [00:45:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Somebody gave him it. I think a lady in his congregation gave it to him as a gift or something. [00:45:47] Speaker A: What? [00:45:48] Speaker B: To remind him I didn't know that God has a face. Whoa. [00:45:52] Speaker C: He said it was really. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was an encouragement. Not because he was convinced it was real, but because it. I don't remember. It, like, helped him ponder the reality of his savior living. [00:46:06] Speaker A: And that's crazy. [00:46:07] Speaker C: Even if the. Even if the shroud isn't real. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Controversial question. I've got one. Does the chosen do that for you? [00:46:14] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. That's a good question. [00:46:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. Yeah. For me. [00:46:17] Speaker B: I don't know why it's controversial. [00:46:19] Speaker C: I don't like to promote it. [00:46:20] Speaker A: I mean, it can be in a [00:46:21] Speaker C: way that's like, yeah, you should watch this. I used to say that because it was just so moving to me, but I really think it's a discernment thing as to whether it's. It's helpful. Some people, it's not. It's just like, you know, like the whole meat. They start visualizing what's his name, Jonathan Rumi. Roomy as Jesus. And that's not helpful at all. But to just like, ponder these realities. The John 3 chapter or the. The chapter John chapter 3 episode in season one was just so amazing with Nicodemus, so. Yes, it does. Generally speaking. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Wow. [00:46:52] Speaker C: It's very, very moving. [00:46:53] Speaker A: It hasn't for me yet. I've watched a few episodes. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Sorry, guys. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Not moved by it. [00:46:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't really do the whole, like. I guess I believe it so much that it's like, I don't. It doesn't help. It's good. But I'm like, yeah, I don't need. [00:47:05] Speaker C: This is the thing. Like, I don't need the show to convince me that these things are true. I believe these things are true. There's good reasons to believe they're true, but because it's done in a pretty good Way as far as just the production of it, it's more of. For me, it's moving to ponder and think about like Jesus living and walking and doing these things. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:29] Speaker C: I wrestle a little bit with some of the license they take in the show. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:47:33] Speaker C: That I'm still. I don't know. I don't know if that. I think there's danger. I think there's a lot of dangers in that, for sure. You start thinking that, you know, the gal's character that died was like a real biblical character and she was totally made up to just build that. Build the storyline. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker C: But as a whole, pondering Jesus more has been really helpful for me. [00:47:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it has helped me. It does not moving necessarily, but it has helped me, like. Like remember some things, you know, from the Bible. [00:48:01] Speaker C: Things that are actually in the Bible. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Well, you know. Yeah. Right. Not like some girl dying, but like. And I don't know if it's even. Most of it seems like it relates pretty well. Like the 99 for one little sermon he does or whatever was good. I was like, oh, that makes sense. But I think it's not the. It's not like the actual words he's using. It's in the movie, in the show. It's just the fact that it happened. And so like, it, like, helps me point back to things better. So like the recall gets better just because I'm. It's a show that I'm watching. Right. It's unfortunate because it shouldn't be that way. It should be more like, no, I read the Bible five times and this is why, you know, so that's unfortunate. But, you know, that's just the reality. I'm just giving you that. [00:48:39] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, what was the original question before shout of. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Well, I was about to get. We were about to move on. We were about to move on. Don't worry. We're about to move on. [00:48:46] Speaker C: I just want to go back to it because there were some. [00:48:48] Speaker A: We are. We are. [00:48:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:49] Speaker A: So the. Yeah. The questions of before were obviously, you know, how. How do we know it happened? What we've just talked about are the. Well, we made the point that basically we just made the point that everyone. General consensus is he definitely was a real person and he definitely died. I don't know what. We have kind of talked a little bit on the resurrection part of it, but I want to talk more about that. So, like, where is that. Where is the evidence of the actual resurrection? Him walking out of this stone and rolling. Whatever. Rolling the stone. And what does he ascend to heaven. Like, what's the. What do we have for that? [00:49:23] Speaker B: Biblical and extra biblical. You want to hit the extra biblical? Because I feel like you're. You're like the history guy, dude. [00:49:29] Speaker A: I feel like you, you are a history guy. [00:49:31] Speaker C: I like history. [00:49:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Tall. [00:49:33] Speaker C: And I think that the historic. The best historical evidence we have is in the Bible. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:39] Speaker C: So not. Not discount. I mean, it's. It's the Bible we believe. It's the inerrant word of God. It's an inspired word of God. And so there is that uniqueness. But we. I think, I think one of y' all said this earlier, which was a good distinction just in passing. Like, you know, the Bible is also historical. The reason why we can believe that the resurrection is true. I don't know. I, I still wrestle with this some. I think we. The historical evidence is super helpful, and I think it's really helpful for me. At the end of the day, like Brad said earlier, you can have all the historical evidence and still not believe in the resurrection. You can still not. There's lots of people that. You just find new ways to be skeptical or find new ways to. Yeah, maybe this is true, but I still want to go live in my own life. So I think just at the beginning, just to highlight the reality that we can't go back in time. Like, anybody that wants 100% assurance, especially from a historical perspective, you're just not going to get it. [00:50:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:44] Speaker C: But that doesn't mean that it's not the best answer to what happened. [00:50:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:50] Speaker C: And it doesn't mean that it's not absolutely true. I mean, I was listening to something recently, and this is a good point. Sadly, there's so many people that are doubting that the Holocaust was even a real thing. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:02] Speaker C: Like, I guess it's more than 50 years now, but not that long ago. It's not that long ago. [00:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:07] Speaker C: And so, yeah, 2,000 years ago. It's. You're never going to have 100 certainty. So I think we should just realize that. [00:51:13] Speaker A: And we have thousands of accounts of that. So. [00:51:15] Speaker C: And we're not grounding our faith on some sort of. Okay, we can 100% prove this historically. We. It's there. There is this. This element of the spirit of God needing to move in us, to convince us in our inner being that God is who he says he is. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:32] Speaker C: That the word of God is the word of God. There is this inner testimony of the Holy Spirit. So I just want to. I think that's important distinction. But the historical evidence is. Is overwhelming. [00:51:44] Speaker A: I mean, we wouldn't call like, some of this faith if it wasn't actually faith. So, you know what I mean, when. [00:51:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you have the Hebrews, [00:51:52] Speaker A: not specifically biblical faith, something. We have faith in the fact that, yeah, we don't have all the assurances that it exactly 100% happened, but that's not. Yeah, we don't need that, is what you're kind of saying. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Christianity. I mean, yeah, obviously we're like big fans of Christianity. We're all Christians. Right. But I mean, it's beautiful, man, because you do have historical. You have lots of historical evidence. And then you also have this idea of faith that Hebrews 11 says is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things unseen. So that is. Yeah, there is an element of faith that cannot be quantified, so to speak. But we trust, as Sean said, because the Spirit of God has helped us do so. But I mean, maybe just starting with, like, how do we know the resurrection happened historically from within the Bible, man, Like, the changed lives of the apostles, I think is a tremendous evidence of, like, you had these guys who, by all historical accounts. And again, this is pretty widely accepted, not just among Christian circles, all of these guys died pretty brutal deaths because they claimed to have seen the risen Jesus. [00:52:58] Speaker C: Be careful not to say all of them. We don't know of all of them. [00:53:00] Speaker B: Okay. A lot of them. [00:53:01] Speaker C: Several of them. [00:53:02] Speaker B: Several, yes. Okay. Several. [00:53:04] Speaker C: Several. They all suffered. They all were persecuted. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Yeah, they were all persecuted. [00:53:09] Speaker C: We don't know if they all died yet. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So. But even a few of them. Right. So, I mean, if you took a few of these guys who were convinced enough to believe that they had seen Jesus risen from the dead and die for, it is pretty compelling. But then, you know, Paul says first Corinthians 15, that Jesus appeared to Cephas. That's pet. Then to the 12, then he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time. [00:53:33] Speaker C: So what did he say right after that? That's amazing. [00:53:36] Speaker B: He says most of whom are still alive. [00:53:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Though some have fallen asleep. So again, like first century accounts of. I mean, we're sitting here today. [00:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Because these early Christians were so convinced they had seen Jesus alive that this message continued to spread. [00:53:51] Speaker A: So only the. Did any of those 500 people, like, randomly write something down about it outside of the. You know what I mean? That's what I'm always curious about. I don't know if we know that. [00:54:00] Speaker C: We don't have any. [00:54:01] Speaker A: I guess we don't really know. [00:54:02] Speaker C: Yeah, we. I mean this, the text that he just read, First Corinthians. [00:54:06] Speaker A: Right. We have that within [00:54:10] Speaker C: 25 years or so. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:12] Speaker C: After the events took place. [00:54:14] Speaker A: I mean, how many people could even read and write back then? Do we know that? [00:54:17] Speaker C: Oh, I mean it was definitely a minority. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:19] Speaker C: Strong minority. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Josephus. Josephus. [00:54:24] Speaker C: Oh yeah. Josephus is some of the extra biblical evidence we have. He was a first century. I think he was a Jewish general in the wars that took place. I think like 66 to 70 A.D. that led to the destruction of the temple by the Roman army. He ends up being saved by the Romans because he basically agrees to help them. He becomes friends with who eventually ends up becoming the emperor. I think it's Tiberius. So anyways, long story short, because this is a Jewish general who lived in Jerusalem but then ends up writing a lot because he, he ends up basically just living in Rome and living a good life. And so he. We have a lot of writings from him that have, that have survived. And one of them does testify to the reality of. I don't, I don't remember the exact details, but about Jesus's at least his death. There's been a lot of debate as to whether that's genuine or was added in afterwards. But I saw something recently. There's a scholar that's just come out with a huge work that is supposedly showing really strong evidence that it was original in the first century. So that would be one example of some extra biblical evidence. But I want to go back to something that you said with the resurrection of. With the apostles, with the disciples being so radically changed. Yeah, I mean they were. Jesus died and they're inside in the upper room, scared, terrified of what's going to happen to them. I think historically it's helpful to think about this as well, that Jesus was not the only Messiah figure in the first century. There were other people that were claiming to be the Messiah and they even had followings, but then they would, you know, they would revolt against Rome or something. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Wait, really? [00:56:21] Speaker C: Huh? [00:56:22] Speaker A: Can we. Okay. Can we talk more about that? I don't. Yeah, I guess. I don't really. [00:56:26] Speaker C: Yeah, so there's. [00:56:26] Speaker A: Heard it, but I don't really know. [00:56:27] Speaker C: There's a. There's a handful. [00:56:28] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:29] Speaker C: There's one specifically that was pretty popular. I'm blanking on his name, but he had hundreds of followers. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:36] Speaker C: I believe what happened is he ended up leading a. Essentially it was kind of a revolt. He ends up getting. That gets squashed. He dies in the following. [00:56:45] Speaker A: Is this what Gamaliel is saying? Yes. Is that what he's talking about? [00:56:49] Speaker C: Yes. [00:56:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:50] Speaker C: He says, let's just. If this is from God, it's going to happen regardless. If it's not from God, it's going to fizzle out. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Wow. [00:56:57] Speaker C: They had seen that happen over the last several decades. It was happening a lot. And so what I'm getting at is that the disciples just saw their Messiah, the Messiah, die. And they're confused. They don't know what's happening, even though Jesus super clear that this was going to happen. And so you have this reality where it's like, okay, this is like the end, you know? And so what Brad just highlighted is that's not the end for the disciples. And there's so much evidence of just radically changed lives. Whether they all died under persecution or not doesn't really matter. Several of them did. James, we know from the biblical account, died. James, the brother of John. Lots of strong evidence for Peter dying under Nero. Paul died under Nero as well. And so the point is that there was radical change. And I think one of the things that was most striking to me when I was first learning about this stuff is that because people always say, well, it doesn't matter how much you believe it. There's people all over the world that do stupid things because they believe it. You know, think, you know, suicide bombers [00:58:01] Speaker A: that are Muslim or cults, you know, or cults. They. [00:58:04] Speaker C: They believe this thing to be true. But the. The huge difference is that the disciples and the apostles and Paul himself as well, would have known definitively that these things were false. Because they. It's not. They're not just saying they believe it. They're saying they were eyewitnesses of the resurrection. Would you be willing to die for something you believed to be true, but you weren't quite sure? Or would you be willing to die for something that you not only believed was true, but you. You or not only that. What I'm trying to say is, would you believe in something if you knew it was false? They would have known it was false, is what I'm saying. Does that make sense? Are you tracking? [00:58:46] Speaker A: Yes, I am. Yeah. I think maybe I'm misunderstanding you, trying [00:58:52] Speaker B: to draw the decision very clear. Okay? [00:58:54] Speaker A: Because like a cult, like the Kool Aid cyanide thing, all of them believed this thing was real. They all believed it. And they were like, I'm in. And they obviously died. [00:59:03] Speaker C: Brad, bring the clarification. [00:59:05] Speaker B: Well, so I think what. What I hear you saying, Sean, which, yes, it's good. I'm racking my brain around it. If the, if the apostles, Paul, any of those guys knew for certain it was false, if they knew that Christ really had not risen from the dead, or if they really hadn' seen him, would they be willing to go on and die the way that they did? Right. Is what you're saying? [00:59:28] Speaker C: Yeah, they could. They could have said, we believe these things to be true. They wrote all this stuff down and went to die. But it's not. Just like the cult guys that drink the Kool Aid. Right. They don't know if it's true or not. They sincerely believe the apostles would have known it was false. [00:59:46] Speaker A: I see. Okay. [00:59:47] Speaker C: They're saying we saw the risen Lord. [00:59:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Also, the leader of that cult didn't do it. Didn't he? I don't know. Maybe he did, but the guy that [00:59:53] Speaker C: took him over to. [00:59:54] Speaker A: He didn't actually do it, right? [00:59:55] Speaker C: No, he did. [00:59:56] Speaker A: He did. [00:59:56] Speaker B: And to go back to the change life thing, like the apostle Paul, man, like, I mean, like, what incentive would the Apostle Paul have to stop doing the things he was doing and spend the latter part of his days being persecuted and suffering and doing all these things if he was not. If he did not have a literal encounter with the. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it'd be more like he'd put it on other people and he would probably try to like scapegoat that. [01:00:17] Speaker B: He's a Pharisee, dude, he hated Christians. [01:00:18] Speaker A: Right. He would. Yeah, he would probably have to scapegoat that. [01:00:21] Speaker C: Yeah, he didn't. [01:00:21] Speaker A: He full on said, I'm going to die for it. [01:00:23] Speaker C: And this is all biblical evidence, but this is super strong historical evidence for the resurrection. For the, for the. Okay, maybe it's putting it this way. Why was the tomb empty? And resurrection is one of the answers. You could say they stole the body or. [01:00:37] Speaker A: Oh yeah, let's talk about that. Who stole the body? What are you talking about? Where's the conspiracy? Sky over y'. All. Get your tinfoil hat on and strap it real tight. [01:00:44] Speaker C: Okay, so if, if, if somebody had stolen the body and that was the case, then the only other alternative would be that there was some sort of mass hallucination that led the disciples, including the apostles, plus upwards of 500 disciples, plus the Apostle Paul who hated the church, to all have hallucinations that Jesus rose from the dead bodily at different times, at some. At different times in some mass hallucinations, because people, up to 500 people saw him risen at the same time. And so the reality is there's not really any good example of a mass hallucination. Somebody will have a hallucination if they're grieving or whatever. That. That makes sense. If it was one person or if they were all separate hallucinations. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Okay, but who would have stole the body? Who would have done that? Well, I mean, that you said stolen body. [01:01:36] Speaker C: Of course somebody could have stolen the body. [01:01:37] Speaker A: What do you mean? Yeah, but that's. But who? Why? That's what I'm saying. Is there any. [01:01:42] Speaker B: Well, the religious leaders. We talked about this earlier. The religious leaders made up a story of. [01:01:48] Speaker A: That's what I was getting at. [01:01:48] Speaker B: I wanted accusing Jesus disciples of stealing his body because. Because they knew that Jesus had said he would be. [01:01:55] Speaker C: But that's also evidence that they didn't steal the body, because why would they say that? [01:02:01] Speaker A: Right. [01:02:01] Speaker C: You know, so, yeah, I mean, I think that's. You could speculate that. [01:02:05] Speaker A: Very interesting. [01:02:05] Speaker C: Somebody else took the body. I mean, that's a, That's a reasonable option. When the grave is empty, that's the first thing you would think, well, who took the body? That makes total sense. But it makes no sense of the resurrection appearances. And again, that strong evidence of. They saw this, their lives were changed. And just to add an extra layer of strength to it, I think is the Apostle Paul. Especially when you have people that are saying, well, it was a hallucination, that makes sense. Somebody hallucinated. Again, mass hallucinations just don't make any sense. That doesn't happen. Yeah, maybe some individuals. But the Apostle Paul, who hated Jesus, who hated the church, who was persecuting the church, who was killing Christians, why would he have a hallucination that Jesus shows up to him and radically changes his life to where he's totally cut off from everything he knew in Jerusalem. He's no longer a leader, he's no longer in this huge position that he was in, and he becomes this humble follower of Jesus. And hallucination makes no sense in that situation. So then you're left with, again, if we're looking at this historically, there's other angles you could come at it, but those are the big ones. The thing that makes the most sense is that Jesus rose from the dead. And in our day, I think we. This is the way I grew up with the Enlightenment kind of thinking. I was an atheist agnostic for a while, and I just had such a materialistic mindset that it was like, it doesn't matter what the evidence says. This is impossible. Nobody raises from the dead. And that's what a lot of more liberal scholarship, people that don't believe the Bible, that don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. It's not that they're. Not that they don't wrestle with the arguments, but they don't follow the conclusions because their presupposition is that this is an impossibility. Which is not. That's not. They're not. Then, then they're not engaging with the historical evidence, they're just engaging with their presupposition. Yeah, miracles don't happen. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:05] Speaker C: Therefore the resurrection is not possible. [01:04:06] Speaker A: I mean, it's an unfortunate. They would do that for a lot of things, you know, not just Jesus resurrection. [01:04:10] Speaker C: So, and if you're one, if you're listening to this and you struggle with that, if, if there is a God, which again, there's. I think there's lots of strong evidence for that as well, then in creation exists Genesis 1. Everything has been created. We see that, we experience that. It's. It's not illogical to think that God can intervene and do something that he doesn't normally do in nature. It's logical that that would happen. And if Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity is true. That's just the simple reality. [01:04:41] Speaker A: Yep, it is. Yeah, it is. Is there more you guys want to do to hit this home? Maybe one last. [01:04:48] Speaker C: What do we, what do we run in time wise? [01:04:50] Speaker A: We're running out of time wise. But I mean, I think the last thing would be like, what does this resurrection mean for us today? We've definitely talked about that. [01:05:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:01] Speaker A: But I don't know if there's any last points you guys want to hit. We close it out. [01:05:05] Speaker B: I'll say one thing and then, Sean, whatever you want to say, man, the end of the book of John, he says, I write these things to you that you may believe. And so, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what we're talking about is not just for non Christians who have yet to put their faith in Jesus, that we desire to see that happen. But, man, for us, like, for me, I'm like, you know, I was telling Sean on the way up here, I, I've been a pastor for over a decade and I've served in different churches. And Easter week is always like, you know, people say this and it's dumb, but it's like, there's a weird truth to it. It feels kind of like the super bowl kind of. And like, you know, so you're like prepping for that service and it, I can easily forget about the significance that Jesus is Alive. Like he's. He's right now alive in heaven. He's coming again. [01:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:52] Speaker B: He will raise when I die and my soul goes to be with Jesus in heaven. He'll return and he'll raise. He'll give me a new glorified body. Like, all those things are as real as I can walk outside and see the sun. And. And so for Christians, I'm like, man, what an. What an invitation and opportunity to believe. Like, to believe that he really is who he said he was, that this is all true. There's just a lot of hope in that. [01:06:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. That passage you quoted at the end of John just now, I think it's close to that section, or right in that section where he says that he's written these things down in order that we would believe, that you would believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But he also says something along the lines of, if I were to have written everything that Jesus did, you know, the books would. It would go to the sky or something along those lines. [01:06:46] Speaker A: Just. [01:06:46] Speaker C: It would be massive. And so what I'm saying is that we have what we have in the scriptures for the purpose of us believing upon the Lord Jesus. We don't need any more evidence. That doesn't mean the evidence isn't strong. It is. We've talked about a lot of it today. It's very strong. But what we have written in the scriptures is for the purpose of us, not just intellectually believing these things, but to really grab hold of and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him. And that's our heart, is that more and more people will come to a realization not just that these things are true intellectually, but that their hearts would be transformed by it. I mean, me and Brad grew up agnostic, atheist at various points, and the Holy Spirit grabbed hold of our hearts. Not because I was convinced of some sort of intellectual argument that was part of my struggle, but the Spirit of God grabbed hold of me, showed me how desperately sinful I was and how much I was in need of his grace, and that that is extended through the person and work of Jesus Christ. And that's. That's our heart. So if you're hearing this this week and you don't have a church, come join us on Sunday, Friday as well. What time? [01:08:11] Speaker B: Friday, 6. [01:08:12] Speaker A: 6pm Good Friday. And Sunday at 10am all right, guys, that's the podcast. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Thanks, man. [01:08:20] Speaker A: That's what we got. [01:08:20] Speaker B: That's fun. [01:08:21] Speaker A: We'll answer more questions later if you guys have them. You can look at the show notes for the link to that submission form. And there's show notes. [01:08:30] Speaker C: Wow. This is official. [01:08:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. We're in, dude. We're in. We love you guys and talk to you later.