How do Christians disagree without dividing?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What's up, everybody? This is Asking for a Neighbor. The goal of this podcast is to articulate, well, normal conversations that you might have with your neighbor. As a Christian, maybe not as a Christian. It's all of the above here at Asking for a Neighbor. Let's get into it. Our hosts today are Brad and Sean. And we'll talk about many things, but first I want to know what Yalls bedtime routine is. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Gosh, Sean, wow. [00:00:44] Speaker A: You just immediately off. [00:00:46] Speaker B: I was. Well, yeah, man. [00:00:47] Speaker A: I. I'm asking because I'm thinking about it recently. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Have you. What's yours? [00:00:52] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I. I'm trying to [00:00:53] Speaker B: figure out, can we reverse the question onto the host? [00:00:55] Speaker A: That's great. Yeah. To give you all some context, I'm trying to, like, figure out the best bedtime routine to get the best sleep. Right. And so the majority of it is trying to settle down. Right. For me, of course, I'm freaking all over the place. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:11] Speaker A: So I guess what it looks like for me is like I don't eat like three hours or so before bed. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:01:17] Speaker C: And then. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And then I don't really drink anything. Like maybe two to. Well, usually like one hour before bed and then I'm off my phone for sure. Like at least 30 minutes or probably an hour. Yeah, they recommend more than that, but they. The biohackers, the PhDs that you might listen to, you know, everywhere. Yeah. But I think it helps. I'm just trying to figure out if there's, like, different things I can do that are easy and this effect on sleep. [00:01:47] Speaker B: It's not the purpose of the podcast at all. But I am interested. I mean, have you. So you've seen an actual change in your sleep from doing these things? [00:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's more about like the time it takes to get to sleep. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:59] Speaker A: You know, like. Yeah, we all have like wake up routines. Right. Like, what's your morning routine? [00:02:05] Speaker C: Oh, dude, that's turning into two questions. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Both of these questions. Just how do you know I have. I have one. Yeah. [00:02:11] Speaker A: What is it? What is it? What do you do normally? Not. You don't have to have the actual routine. Like, it doesn't have to be some package deal. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, so we have five kids and our youngest is seven months. She's not sleeping. None of our kids, really. I love all my kids. I doubt they'll listen to this, but they're wonderful. [00:02:30] Speaker A: The seven month old, [00:02:33] Speaker B: but man, none of them historically have slept at all. So they usually start sleeping at age two. So Sydney and I Will jokingly, but somewhat serious, with like a tear running down our face, say that we haven't slept in 10 years. And so anyways, man, so my, My. Our nighttime routine is get the kids down, hang out for a little bit, go to bed. It's a pretty boring routine. [00:02:58] Speaker C: That's. [00:02:58] Speaker A: That's good. [00:02:58] Speaker B: That's great. And I. I wish that I could say I'm disciplined enough to not eat three hours before I go to bed. [00:03:04] Speaker A: That's. Well, that's pretty extreme, dude. I don't. [00:03:06] Speaker B: I still want cereal before I go to bed, dude. I haven't lost that since I was like, eight. [00:03:10] Speaker C: Classic. [00:03:10] Speaker A: I love that. That's actually one of my cruxes or whatever. But still terrible cereal. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Sugar. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, sugar right before bed is. It's not the move. [00:03:18] Speaker B: It's not. It's not good. Yeah. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Probably even compared to, like, probably why I'm not sleeping. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Our kids are probably sleeping fine. [00:03:23] Speaker A: When do you put your kids down? [00:03:24] Speaker B: The Lucky Charms. That's keeping me awake at night. 8, 8:30. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Ish. That's plenty of time. Yeah. To add a little routine in there. Yeah. [00:03:33] Speaker B: I mean, maybe to be clear, I don't do cereal every night. Like, that's a. I. I want it. It's a. It's a craving for all y' all out there, but I don't do that. And then morning is. Is coffee and Bible and pray and go for a walk. [00:03:51] Speaker A: I'm sure your days are set up pretty well. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Walk helps my day, man. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:55] Speaker A: Same thing for sleep, dude. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:57] Speaker A: You know, so what, man? That's crazy. But that sounds like you have a lot of time. So, like, do you drink tea? Like, do you do any of that at night? [00:04:05] Speaker B: A lot of time at night, yeah. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Do you do any, like. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we don't, man. It sounds that way. We don't have a ton of time. Normally after the kids go down, we do house stuff. [00:04:14] Speaker A: I said you're doing all the cleanup, the chores, all that. [00:04:16] Speaker B: So when we lay our heads down, it's usually not after an extended time of leisure. [00:04:23] Speaker A: No, I get what you're saying. [00:04:26] Speaker B: So anyways, yeah, so, yeah, we put the kids down, we do some housework, we'll sit down, Talk. And normally 11 ish is bedtime for us when we try, we try to make our way there. So anyways, that's great. Good. John. [00:04:42] Speaker C: Yeah. Evenings, less routine than the mornings. But my evening routine recently is a little interesting. Not only, like, right before bed, so usually I'm reading or if we're maybe watching a Show. But my routine before bed is I've been having some eyelid issues. I have meibomianitis, I believe is what it's called. And so I have. It's basically a glandular dysfunction in my eyelids. And so you might have seen before, I've gotten like, these red bumps on my eyelids. And so I have to. I wash my eyelids really well before I go to bed. And then I have. [00:05:28] Speaker B: How do you wash them? [00:05:29] Speaker C: I have a special tea tree oil [00:05:31] Speaker A: foam wash. Yeah, it's great. [00:05:34] Speaker C: Yeah. So I do that twice a day. And then I have this little mask thing that I put in the microwave for 30 seconds. So, like, it's a heat thing that I put over my eyes. So I lay down and wear that for like five minutes, pray a little bit. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Can you. Can you tell me if you've noticed since starting doing that? [00:05:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:55] Speaker A: A difference. [00:05:55] Speaker C: Oh, 100%. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Just to slow down for five minutes. [00:05:59] Speaker C: I thought you meant like a difference with my eyelids helping a lot. [00:06:03] Speaker A: I meant generally in your life, but could be sleep. Could be. [00:06:06] Speaker C: No, man, I don't. I mean, maybe I don't. I'm not that routined in that, like what you were describing. Like, sure, that's great, but I don't think that would be good or bad for me. Like, I lay down, I can go to sleep in 5, 10 minutes most of the time. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, to my detriment. I'm pretty analytical, so. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker C: And I wake up a lot at night. The older I get. Which stinks. Yeah, yeah. Not to pee. I'm not that old yet, but I do wake up a lot. But, yeah, I mean, I. The evening, you know, it's. It varies a little bit depending on the evening. Mornings are way more routine. [00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:42] Speaker C: I get up, wash my eyelids. This is a whole. [00:06:47] Speaker B: This is a whole, like, compartment of your life. I feel like that I didn't know [00:06:51] Speaker C: anything, you know, get older. There's stuff you got to do. Get up, get my pour over going, feed the dogs, and then get done with the pour over. Get on my knees, pray in the living room, sit down, read anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, depending on how early I've gotten up. But that's, I think, the most helpful thing for me, routine wise. And I think my. My wife would be proud because I'm. I have historically not been great about this, but getting good sleep. Going to bed. I go to bed like 10, 10, 15 now, which is not. [00:07:26] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:07:26] Speaker C: Not normal historically, but that allows me to get up at 6. Yeah, you know, I usually, I'm not usually not asleep till like, 10:30, 10:45, most nights. But I can get up at 6 and I'm great because that gives me lots of time to spend praying and reading. [00:07:42] Speaker A: Were you not usually getting up at 6 anyway? [00:07:44] Speaker C: I mean, I was getting up at, like, 6:30. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:47] Speaker C: Which is not that huge of a difference, but it is when it comes out of 10. Yeah. Because for me, the thing that tends to get pushed to the wayside is prayer. And so when I get up and I have space and I can get down on my knees and just spend time praying for and not feel rushed. And I have certain things that I pray for and I don't. I'm not like, oh. Because reading is like, an easier priority for me. And so I feel like even that extra little 15, 30 minutes has been, has been super helpful. [00:08:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:18] Speaker C: And it only takes me, like, 60 seconds to wash my eyelids, so. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a. I think I [00:08:25] Speaker A: love the, the warm pad thing you put on or whatever. [00:08:30] Speaker C: Yes, I am trying to. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Five minutes. You said five minutes praying. [00:08:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it gives me a second to chill and, and to pray. [00:08:36] Speaker A: That's awesome, dude. [00:08:38] Speaker C: You know, I don't, I've half. I have fallen asleep with it on, and I wake up and I'm like, oh, what is this thing on me? [00:08:43] Speaker A: Could y' all fall asleep anywhere? Are you those types of people? [00:08:45] Speaker B: I have. I'm not consistently that type of person, but I'm, I'm, I'm getting there, man. [00:08:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:50] Speaker B: Where? You know, put a movie on. Put a movie on. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:54] Speaker B: And I'll be asleep in 20 minutes. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:56] Speaker C: Don't even open that, no matter what. Can of worms, Brad. So many movies. Like, you need to watch this. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, I, I, I was a movie. I was a. Dude, I, I was a film studies minor in college. Did you know that? I didn't, I didn't follow through with it. I ended up with an English minor. But there was a hot second where I was like, you kept falling asleep during all of these. [00:09:22] Speaker C: I gotta change my major. [00:09:24] Speaker B: I wanted to be a. I wanted to be, like, a movie reviewer. That's what I wanted to do for, like, a critic. [00:09:30] Speaker A: A movie critic. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Before I became a Christian, dude, I was like. I was like, is it acting? It's definitely not acting. I was in one play in eighth grade. Musician. I was in one play in eighth grade, and I auditioned for the lead bad guy. And dude, it was. Apparently, it was so bad. I was, I was cast as the Fourth, man. So I had one line and it was birds cold outside. It was the only line that I. [00:10:01] Speaker C: And you butchered it. [00:10:03] Speaker B: No, I remembered it, man. I had crushed it. It's great line, but not an actor. So I want to be a film critic. But yeah, the movies, I guess that's [00:10:11] Speaker C: great information that I did not have and makes. [00:10:14] Speaker A: You all got some stuff on each other now. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Sky. [00:10:16] Speaker C: That was a good question. [00:10:17] Speaker B: I'm going to washer. It is guaranteed at some point during this podcast, I'm going to think about you washing your eyelids. [00:10:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Not be able to follow through with a. With a very compelling thought. [00:10:28] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:10:29] Speaker C: On that note. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:30] Speaker A: We can. Do you guys want to move into the question or you guys want to. [00:10:34] Speaker B: You lead us? [00:10:34] Speaker A: What are you guys thinking? [00:10:35] Speaker C: Let's move on. [00:10:36] Speaker A: Do we have other. This is hilarious. I'm supposed to be the host. Do you guys have other bullet points that we're going to hit? Are they all in the dock? [00:10:47] Speaker B: I think they should be. I think we'll just see what happens. Great. [00:10:51] Speaker A: I'm going to read. [00:10:51] Speaker B: Sean put a bunch of bullet points. [00:10:52] Speaker A: So we'll see what happens. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, we've got. Wow. [00:10:56] Speaker B: Okay, great. [00:10:57] Speaker A: So for those listening guys, you're not watching on camera, you can't see. I'm pulling up the question that we get from our listener, slash member, slash anyone, I guess, neighbor. Yeah. And today's question, how do we engage in or not engage about what is going on in the world? In parentheses, current events in a way that reflects Christ and the gospel. And how do we engage with our neighbors in those conversations? An example would be how to engage with a fellow believer who is posting an opposing view politically on social media. Or how do we engage in an in person conversation with a fellow believer who differs politically than you. [00:11:49] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot there. [00:11:50] Speaker B: What a great question. [00:11:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Could we. We did this at the end of the podcast last time. But just. I'll put you on the spot for a second. [00:11:58] Speaker C: Dude. [00:11:58] Speaker B: Could you articulate. Because this word was in the question. And just to make sure that we're like really clearly defining our words, assuming that. Hoping that people who listen to this, some people who listen to this are not going to be familiar with some of those words. Yeah, sure. Like the word gospel. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Gospel. Yeah. Right. [00:12:13] Speaker B: So could you articulate, Sean, was that [00:12:15] Speaker C: word in the question? [00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah. How do we honor Christ and the gospel? [00:12:18] Speaker A: Even just believer. Right. [00:12:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Sorry. Ask the question again. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah. What is that? What is the gospel? [00:12:23] Speaker C: What is the gospel? Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker B: In like a minute, minute and a half. [00:12:26] Speaker C: Yeah. What is the gospel and maybe what is a Christian? Yeah, yeah. So the. The gospel, I mean, being very literal, it. In the original language, it means good news. And so the gospel is the news that salvation has come. And in particular, salvation has come in the person and work of Jesus Christ. That the entire story of the Bible is a revelation of God's work in the world to bring about the salvation of sinners, to bring people into his kingdom. And that picture, that story that's unfolding throughout the Bible finds its fulfillment in the good news or the gospel. That's the person of Jesus Christ who is born of the Virgin Mary, who's born a complete, full human being who lives under the law of God, who fulfills the law of God perfectly on behalf of man, who instead of the death and judgment that we deserve because of our sin, he goes to the cross and bears the judgment that we deserve upon himself as he dies on the cross and then three days later raises again from the dead and wins victory over death, over our sin, over the devil. And through faith in him, through turning from our sin and trusting in him, we can have salvation. We can be reconciled to God. And so that's in a nutshell, what the gospel is. There's certain. I think if you're not familiar with the gospel, there's certain realities that we have to ground ourselves in, which I think some of these realities will probably come into play in our conversation today. But it's the reality that God has created the world and has created humanity in his image. And humanity, starting with Adam and Eve, have chosen to rebel against God. And since that rebellion, all of humanity has. Has been by nature sinful. And so we all choose to rebel against God. Every human being that's ever existed, save Jesus, knows internally that there's something wrong with them, that they're broken. And so the whole story of salvation is God, though we deserve judgment because we have rebelled against him, orchestrating a wonderful plan of salvation. And the world would have us think that the road to that salvation is wide. And there's many paths to that salvation where the scriptures make clear that there is only salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. And the reason why it is the gospel, it is good news, is because it is a work that God alone does. We do not contribute to that work of salvation. We receive it by trusting upon the Lord Jesus and what he's done for us. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a Christian. A Christian is a person who has received the good news of Jesus who has received it. [00:15:40] Speaker C: And I want to be really clear on this. Especially in our culture, this is super important because it's not somebody who just agrees with the facts of Jesus, life, death, and resurrection. It's not somebody that's just grown up in a Christian household who believes these things to be true in their mind, but who has from the heart been converted, or as Jesus talks about in John 3, has been born again. The apostle Paul uses language like new creation. And so it's not just a matter of intellectual assent, although that's necessary. We have to know the news. We have to understand what Jesus has done in his life, death and resurrection. But it's a receiving that at the heart level. That means we have to internally be emptied of ourself. And we have to say, I have nothing to offer. And I'm saying what Jesus has done is enough for me personally. We have a lot of people walking around saying, yeah, I'm a Christian, but in their mind it's a. I agree with these things or I agree with these certain worldview things, but internally they have not been converted. They haven't been changed from the inside out. Yeah, that's a Christian. Somebody who's been changed and who is following the Lord Jesus. [00:16:57] Speaker A: There's many, like, questions, obviously, that can come from that. If you're listening and have those questions, you can send them in. Also. We'll. We aim to answer more questions about the gospel as we go. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, that's a helpful framework to just like, okay, we're talking, you know, how do we honor Jesus? How do we honor the gospel as Christians? [00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:18] Speaker B: Having an understanding of what those things are. [00:17:19] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's awesome. [00:17:23] Speaker B: So, sky, would you reread just kind of the first part to the question? [00:17:27] Speaker A: I can. Yeah. So now that we have these, we have the context, and this person's just asking, how do we engage or not engage with what is going on in the world to a neighbor or a friend or even a fellow believer? The question says specifically fellow believer, but I would say it probably applies to everyone just in conversation. How do we have those conversations? Or do we. [00:17:52] Speaker C: Yeah, can I. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Can I say something just on the front end and then. So, yeah, we had this conversation before the recording. And I just, you know, I think it's helpful to be reminded, like, not everything is, you know, black and white, right and wrong, when it comes to the question, when it comes to the issues of the world. Okay. So, like, we obviously, we live in an information age. We live online in many respects, which is Somewhat of a tragedy to say, I feel like, but it's just the reality, like, and there's so much going on all the time. And I think it can feel this way. Maybe I just feel this way sometimes as a. As a. Like a church leader. Like, there is a. There's like an unwritten expectation to have. To have an opinion on everything. And it's a matter of right and wrong as to whether or not you choose to engage it. And so we were just having a conversation around, like, man, sometimes it's not a matter of right and wrong. It's a matter of wisdom. Like, is it the wisest thing for you to engage in something that another Christian says or that somebody says that you disagree with? And we can talk about that. How do you know if it's a wise decision or not? And if you do decide that, it's. It's. It's a wise decision that, that you engage with it or with them. What's the wisest way to do it? Like, you know, I'll just say this up front, then we can talk about it more later. But, like, of the oppression, I think it's, like, rare that. I think it's wise to engage online a lot. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Like, I just think that, you know, it's similar to texting. It's like, if you're going to have conflict with somebody or something that could be interpreted as conflict or anything like that, I'm like, man, just do it in person. [00:19:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, It's. [00:19:38] Speaker B: It's, in my opinion, the better way [00:19:40] Speaker A: if you want to have conflict. Right. [00:19:41] Speaker B: If you want. Yeah. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Some of this too boils down to, like, why are you feeling. If you are that person looking online and getting frustrated, where is that coming from in a way, you know, versus that other person? They may not have anything to do with them. Yeah, sometimes. And then, you know, the other thing I would say is, like, I mean, are we even called? Are we called to always enter these conversations? Like, are we called to or not? [00:20:07] Speaker B: It's a good question. I mean, I. Unless you can think of something, I can't. There's nothing in this, in the Bible that would insinuate that at all. But, I mean, certainly we're called to. You know, the calling is Matthew 28, you know, to go and make disciples. Like, to make disciples of people who are not yet disciples of Jesus and to, you know, sharpen one another. The proverbs say is iron sharpens iron. To build one another up in the faith, to disciple one another to Jesus. Like, all of those are callings. I think we're talking about like a very specific modern day application. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Well, well, I don't know if I'm modern day. I mean, look at the back. The disciples were dealing with tons of political and current events. [00:20:49] Speaker B: So that. That's not modern day, but the means by which we do it. [00:20:52] Speaker A: I see what you're saying. [00:20:53] Speaker B: Online, via social media and these kinds of things. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:20:56] Speaker B: And having the amount of information as quickly as we can get it is like totally new. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. [00:21:02] Speaker B: Right. So like, yeah, they didn't, you know, Luther back in the day didn't have immediate access to what was going on all the way across the world, where I heard a general say this on a podcast and I thought it was fascinating. Like the whole world right now is living in PTSD in a sense, because we're being exposed moment by moment to things that back in the day people only saw on the battlefield. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:25] Speaker B: That's crazy. [00:21:26] Speaker A: It is crazy. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Right? [00:21:27] Speaker A: So anyways, yeah, this generation has been like, just had so many things happen to it. You know what I mean? [00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Wars and all that. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Just a quick historical note, I'm wondering with Luther specifically, it was a massive shift historically because of the printing press. [00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker C: So they did have access to information in some sense, a new way, quicker than any other generation before them. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah, they did. Yeah. [00:21:53] Speaker C: Not in the same magnitude of Internet and social media. Right. But it was probably a huge shift than before. But I think to go back to your question, sky, about is it a calling to respond or however you phrase that, I think it depends, number one, contextually, like if we're talking about a brother or sister that we know that is engaging in maybe a way that's unhelpful. You know, maybe there is a sense where we need to. We need to engage that person. But as Brad said, I agree, it's. It's probably not by responding to their post online. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:30] Speaker C: It's probably through a private channel and then seeking to have more conversation. Oftentimes we need to understand more where they're coming from. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:39] Speaker C: What their thoughts are, why did they post this, whatever it is, versus just a temptation to say, I disagree with this. I need to. I need to communicate my disagreement because I'm. I'm right and they're wrong or whatever it is. Yeah. So I think peeling this back a little bit and then we can go into some more details when we're having this conversation about how to respond, whether to respond. Brad and I were joking a little bit before because neither of us are on social media in that kind of context where we're engaging in any level online Besides like watching YouTube, you know. But I think there's a lot of just basic principles that I think we can go into it with. And I think you had mentioned some biblical principles. I think of Colossians 4, where Paul talks about us being having our speech seasoned with salt. And that context specifically there, I believe, if I remember correctly, is in relation to outsiders. And the idea is, and I think kind of a more overarching principle is it's not just about am I right in this situation or am I thinking correctly, or is this, you know, is the truth on my side. All things that are important, I'm not trying to minimize them, but it's the heart and the character behind how we engage with those things. So the Lord's not just interested in us getting the truth correct, but interested in how we are engaging people, how we are reflecting the character of God. And this again gets back to my. When I was talking about what it means to be a Christian. It means being transformed from the inside out, which means that we're not just thinking or saying the right things, but it's coming from a heart that's being transformed. And so we are thinking about this conversation. How do I engage this? Yes, truth has to be part of that. Is this true? Is this wrong or right? Those kind of things are immensely important. But in the engagement piece, am I thinking through this from a perspective that is coming from a heart that loves this individual, even if it's somebody I don't know, or especially if it's somebody I know, Am I wanting what is best for them? Am I wanting them to be conformed to the image of Christ as my primary motive internally? That changes the way that you think about it from just a, I need to tell this person they're wrong or I need to show, which is in all of us. Right. That temptation is there. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:26] Speaker C: But it changes it from that to, gosh, how do I engage this person out of demonstration of loving them, which in some cases needs to be a very difficult conversation about how wrong they are because they're wrong in such a way that distorts God or distorts the image of God and humanity or whatever it is, but it's still coming from a place of I love them and I want what's best for them. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:52] Speaker C: Does that make sense? [00:25:53] Speaker A: It does. Yeah. It seems like online is the majority of the time. It's not a, oh, my gosh, they're so Wrong. If they are believers, you know, they're so wrong. This goes against the Bible and God. It's usually small things that can lead to big disagreements. That's usually what happens. Right. On social media, I stopped posting stories a lot. I still do on Instagram. I used to. I used to do, like, posts all the time. And I was a very political person. And I. I don't think it gets anywhere. And I also don't. Didn't realize, like, there's the motive behind why you post that or whatever, you know. So I think, to clarify for the listeners and maybe you guys, I want to clarify. Engaging may not actually mean just responding to a post. Engaging could also mean you're the one posting something. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:43] Speaker A: In my opinion. I don't know if that's for you guys or. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Well, and I think. Sorry, Scott, go ahead. [00:26:48] Speaker A: No, that's it. That's what I wanted to clarify. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I had a quick thought and then to get to that, just in regards to Sean, you talking about getting to, like, really, you know, and this is loosely, you know, principle driven from a particular text that, you know. But when Jesus is talking about judging one another, confronting one another, he says, take the log out of your eye before you see to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Well, it's like, super easy to assume that everybody else has the log. Right. And you have the spec when it comes to these kinds of things. Like, I see more clearly than that person does. But I think that that principle, I mean, it certainly should apply before engagement. Right. Like, I think that's part of the slow process of whether or not it's wise to even engage. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:35] Speaker B: First, take the log out of your eye before you see to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Regardless of what the issue is and how wrong you think they are or how wrong they might be. Like, they be genuinely, like, really super wrong. Right. But then the second thing I was thinking is, you know, when it comes to these things, like, let's say hypothetically, like, you are. You're online, you're on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and you see a fellow Christian post something that you totally disagree with and you're considering engaging, I think a couple of things to remember that could be helpful. One, you probably most likely don't have all the data points behind the post. Like, and I think that's part of what you were getting at, maybe, Sean, in regards to, like, motives. Like, it's really easy for us to assume motives from other People, we see them do or say things, but you probably don't have all the data points. And so just a. I think this is just a good counseling principle that I'm trying to learn in pastoral ministry. Like, ask a lot of questions. Right. So, like, prior to. Because you don't have all the data points and you can assume you don't ask a lot of questions and that just kind of. Again, it's intended to kind of slow us down a little bit, especially for the personality type that's a little bit more prone toward, like, quick engagement or. Is that you? Yeah, like quick engagement or, you know, anything like that. Some people need to be motivated to engage more, and then others just slow down. Remember, you don't have all the data points. And so ask a lot of questions. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Not even, like, just in person. That's how it is. Like, even in your own relationship. You know what I mean? In my own relationship, like my own marriage, like, I have to slow down, ask questions, figure it out. I don't always know the motive of my own spouse in the same room. So how are you supposed to know the motive of someone online? You're not. It's not going to happen. [00:29:25] Speaker B: We don't even often know ours. [00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. [00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah. People are often asking, like, how do I engage this specific situation or whatever. And understandably, most of the time it's ask more questions rather than what do I need to say. Obviously, there's things probably you need to say in certain context, but probably not before you ask five or six questions. And not just like vague questions, but, like, really inquisitive. How can I understand where this person's coming from and what they're saying that applies in this particular context we're talking about with the question we've been given. But as Brad's saying, in. In all of life and in particularly within the church, to disciple and minister to one another, a lot of that is seeking to understand where people are at, where they're coming from. So I think that's. I think that's a good point. I know that there's some other kind of key areas we want to hit. I think maybe one other, since we've kind of been talking about the, you know, the heart behind it of engaging in some of these things. I think maybe a good principle that we need to think about that is connected to that is what most people refer to as like a biblical anthropology. So what I mean by that is thinking about people in a way that is thinking about human beings the way that God thinks about them. Anthropology is just the study of man. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. I was going to say, yeah, it [00:30:58] Speaker C: is not a clothing store. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Well, I'm just kidding. [00:31:01] Speaker C: I guess it is, but yeah. And they don't even spell it right. I don't believe. But anyways, it doesn't matter. A biblical anthropology. The reason why this is so important in a topic like this is it helps us to think about people from the perspective of God. People that are created in God's image and that is every single human being, regardless of race, ethnicity, background, mental capacity, age. So yes, this goes even into the womb, conception, the elderly equally image bearers, equally valuable in God's eyes. You can see even just immediately this understanding of who people are impacts so much of the way that we think about a lot of these topics in our day. But I think also from the perspective of how do I engage people, it's making sure that we're thinking about people the way that God thinks about them. So this other person, especially when we're thinking about online engagement, you don't see them, you're not talking to them, there's words on the screen or whatever it is, but there is a human being that is behind those words. And that human being is created in the image of God. And so I think, actually I mentioned this when I preached a few weeks ago, but essentially the baseline idea of being created in God's image is that we have immense value and dignity as human beings. Not because of something that we have accomplished or done, but just being human beings because we're created in the image of God. And there's other things that you could argue that the image of God means, but at its essential nature, it's a reality that we are created in God's image. Which means the person that you're engaging with has immense value and dignity. And I know that seems, especially if you're a Christian listening to this, fairly basic. But I would encourage you to think about when you're thinking about somebody else that you're disagreeing with is your framework. One of this person is created in the image of God. How can I engage with them that honors them in that way, even if I strongly disagree with him, even if it's somebody who is immensely evil and wicked. And you can just go down the list of famous people, we'll just throw out Hitler, for example. Hitler was created in the image of God. [00:33:20] Speaker A: Second episode mention Hitler. [00:33:25] Speaker C: We go a little bit back in history, not get too political in mentioning people from our day. But the point is that Even somebody as twisted and wicked and sin on display for the whole world to see, that person is created in God's image. And so all that to say, just to summarize, I think when we're. That would be my biggest encouragement is are we thinking about people from that perspective? And then what I said earlier about loving that person and doing, engaging in such a way where we're seeking to have our heart shaped in a way that is whatever it is we're doing, we're seeking to do it for their good. That comes out of a true biblical perspective of thinking of that person as an image bearer of God. Does that make sense? [00:34:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah, you made a point, Sean. That was our priority will be loving the people we are interacting with rather than winning the argument. I think that's a good point. [00:34:25] Speaker B: The only. I don't like the word nuance. Is there another word caveat maybe? [00:34:32] Speaker A: Caveat's not. [00:34:32] Speaker C: Is that the same as correction? [00:34:34] Speaker B: No, it's not a correction. [00:34:37] Speaker A: The ebb and flow. [00:34:38] Speaker B: It's an accept extension to what you're saying. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Maybe a balance of. [00:34:41] Speaker B: I don't know, it's not even a balance. Who knows? Who cares? But was just thinking like all of that is 100% like, I agree, 100%. And you know, I think Hitler, Hitler's like, that's like low hanging fruit of an example, right? [00:34:56] Speaker A: But yeah, Sean, low hanging fruit. [00:34:58] Speaker B: It's a good example. Like evil man, you know, did wicked things, you know, all of that created in the, in the image of God. None of that negates you think about like the imprecatory psalms, right? Like that's another fancy word that, you know, just those are psalms where David essentially is calling on the judgment of God upon people who do evil, wicked things, right? Like that's 100%. That is also appropriate, right? And so I think what we're saying, and Sean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is important again, our particular time here, 21st century United States, information age, Internet age, all of that, everything is moving so quickly, right, that what we're not saying is there's this moral equivalency in the world by which. Just don't be mad at anybody for doing anything bad that they're doing, right? Like what you're talking about is slowing down and recognizing that everybody who lives is created in the image of God. And that ought to animate the way that we engage. But then after that, there are times, right, where it's appropriate to not violently. That's not the Right word to use. It's going to get us kicked off podcasting already, dude. What? [00:36:13] Speaker A: Violently? [00:36:13] Speaker B: Not violently. Vehemently opposing somebody for doing wicked things. [00:36:19] Speaker C: So 100% agree with that. I would say that that actually comes out of a biblical anthropology. So somebody is created in God's image. Let's throw out a big topic right now that we're dealing with in our day talk about the transgender ideology. The reason, as a Christian, that we should be so opposed to that ideology is because of the destruction that it causes to human beings who are created in God's image. [00:36:50] Speaker A: Yeah. To that person. [00:36:51] Speaker C: To that person and the people in their life. 100%. Yeah. So it's a biblical anthropology that understands humanity is created in God's image. Male and female in God's image. Right. It's male and female are together created in God's image. And so that actually informs how we address these issues. And so we should vehemently be opposed to something like transgender ideology, not because we hate the people that are believing these things, but because we love them, because they're created in God's image. And this is a distortion of God's image. [00:37:27] Speaker A: So when they're standing in front of [00:37:28] Speaker B: you, [00:37:30] Speaker A: what's the approach? I'm bringing it all the way down to a practical. [00:37:34] Speaker B: What are they standing in front of us doing? [00:37:36] Speaker A: A transgender person standing in front of you? Right. [00:37:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, most of the time it's in the context, for example, like at work or something like that. I'm going to treat them like a human being because they are a human being. Regardless of what their ideology is or whatever it is, they're a human being. And so that's the first step, is to not treat them any differently. Not look at them like, I can't believe this. [00:38:01] Speaker A: They're an image bear. [00:38:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Or the caricature of somebody. Like, the caricature from that perspective most of the time of somebody that would. Like myself, who would say, I do disagree with this. Sure would be like, that. I look at them in a, like, kind of way. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Like, they have to know that I disagree all automatically without me saying it kind of thing. [00:38:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:19] Speaker A: But it's. [00:38:19] Speaker C: It's like, no, I. You're a human being and I'm going to interact with you. I'm going to treat you like a person. I'm not going to. Not going to look weird or, like, look at you weirdly. I'm just going to. I'm going to treat you like a human being. And then, Lord willing, conversations that come up so I'll give you an example. At somebody at work a few years ago who was in that camp or that was transgender, I wanted to engage in a conversation, but it's just so hard at work, you know, and also just the context and there's so many things. But I did engage them, her and a few other people about, like, I'd love to talk. And it was kind of more in, like, a political kind of way. Let's. Let's have conversations about these things. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. [00:39:10] Speaker C: And initially they were open, but I think the more they thought about it, they know I'm a Christian, and they knew that there was going to be disagreement. They ended up saying, no, I don't want to meet, because they didn't want to. They didn't want to have a conversation that. That was going to be combative, especially because we're. We're co workers. And I totally understand. I respect that. I'll say, okay, well, let me know if you change your mind. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:30] Speaker C: And so I think in that particular context, I did not treat that individual any different than I would have treated anybody else. And so I think that foundationally, that individual needs to know that. That I treat them as a person, that I. That I love them. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:44] Speaker C: And that opportunity arises, and I prayed for opportunities for that to happen. We need to be prepared to give a defense for the hope that we have, and we need to be clear in the truth. But that needs to be seasoned with a humble heart that is, again, genuinely seeking the good of that individual. And I think, coming back to the biblical anthropology, your point is great, Brad, because it brings up the other. It brings up different angles of it, I guess, but it's still all rooted in a biblical anthropology. The reason why we can say what Hitler did was so evil and wicked is because of the murder of millions of people that are created in God's image. A secular worldview cannot say that with any sort of objective grounding. We can say that as Christians because these are image bearers of God, and you're treating them as if they are less than that. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I just asked the question because it's similar to the. It's like, engaging culture, and it doesn't necessarily have to be political. Right. But that is, I guess, political in some way. But, you know, it can be all different forms that you meet this person, where they're at, and you're like, how do we love them? [00:40:48] Speaker C: And, I mean, most of the issues we think of that are political really come down to a worldview theology Issue theology. How do we think through these things from a biblical perspective? They have political elements. Like, obviously, the transgender conversation has a lot of political elements, but it's foundationally. That's not what it is the world. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Did you have some. Something to say on that? [00:41:11] Speaker B: I was just going to say that the goal is that they know Jesus. [00:41:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:14] Speaker B: It's. It's not primarily that we convince them of anything politically. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Or. Or, you know, ideologically or anything like that. I mean, it's. And so, yeah, man, I. I agree with every part of that. Like, I likewise, I've had conversations with people who identify as transgender. And, yeah, you. You. You're a human with another human. You're a broken, sinful individual. They're a broken, sinful individual. You both need the Savior. The primary goal of any engagement with another person who's not yet a Christian is not to convince them politically of your side. It's that they know Jesus. And I think that starting with. Or I think basing the, you know, the. The motivation or the impetus behind why you want to have the engagement in the first place with that person, if it's anything other than that, then unintentionally, I think we're going to create barriers for them to come to Jesus. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:11] Speaker B: Like, and Jesus is the one. Just like Sean said at the beginning of the podcast, like, the. The spirit of God changes a person from the inside out. Right. And so, like, our. How we see the world and how we see politics and how we. We do all of this is really, you know, it's. It's formed by him when we come to know Jesus. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:33] Speaker B: So I think just even wherever that fits into the conversation, like, keeping the main thing. The main thing when we think about why we engage. [00:42:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:40] Speaker B: It's. It's that, you know, they know Jesus. [00:42:42] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like people put themselves in political boats, you know, and then like, oh, that guy's in that boat, not on my boat. You know what I mean? That's not how it works. Yeah. [00:42:50] Speaker C: Just to flesh that out a little bit more. The ultimate goal being them knowing Jesus. I think there's layers of us thinking about this. So let's talk about, in relation to transgenderism, again, the ultimate goal of anybody who is in that has been embracing that ideology. Of course, the ultimate goal is for them to know the Lord Jesus. That from a Christian perspective, that should be our ultimate goal for any engagement in these conversations. There is a reality, though, when we're thinking about the way God has created the world and thinking of mankind. In some sense, that person coming out of that transgender ideology and embracing their manhood or womanhood in the way that God has created them is a victory in the sense that it's for their good ultimately to embrace the way that God has created them. So I think even not knowing Christ in some sense, morally speaking, and for the good of that individual, that's a win. But that's never, from our perspective as Christians, the ultimate win, because that person. It's not the transgenderism that has them under God's judgment solely. It's a rebellion against God. And so, yeah, in that sense, if they're coming out of transgender ideology, they're no longer rebelling against God in that particular way, but they're still rebels against God because they're sinful. And so it's not an ultimate victory in any sense because that individual is still at enmity with God. And so that's the heart behind the Christian's heart, is, I want this person to be reconciled to God. [00:44:29] Speaker B: I was going to say that. [00:44:30] Speaker C: No, Jesus. [00:44:31] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that the goal is what they need more than anything. What they need more than renouncing transgenderism is to be reconciled to God 100%. And by being reconciled to God, the transgenderism, Lord willing, by God's grace, becomes renounced as the Spirit changes their desires and their perspective. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Now, maybe we can turn it down a little bit on the, you know, hot scale or whatever, the. Going back to the political or current events or whatever someone might say online. What if that person is, like, someone you see in person normally? Like, what if they're one of the church members? What if they're someone you see regularly? Right. And we're not going to engage on. On social media because that's probably not the right move. But at the end of the day, like, how do we, you know, I guess just. How do you. How do you say this? What's a good way for you to still, you know, I guess act lovingly to them? You know what I mean? Like, knowing, like. Because all of us will have that thing where it's like. Does it, like. Is it like a thorn in your side or whatever that they disagree kind of thing? You know, how do you. How do you get rid of that thorn in yourself? [00:45:43] Speaker B: Like, how does the. Can you reframe the question? [00:45:45] Speaker A: So, like, sorry, it's very hard to. [00:45:47] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:45:47] Speaker A: I'm trying to describe it in a good way. That's healthy. [00:45:51] Speaker C: So. So I'm not Tracking. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Describe it in a clear way. [00:45:54] Speaker A: All right, here. You ready? So someone disagrees. They're online. They're posting whatever they want to post. You disagree with them, you don't want to engage them. Right. That's what we've kind of discussed here. They go to your church. You go to church. You know, you see them. [00:46:04] Speaker B: How. [00:46:05] Speaker A: What's a good way for us to like. And I think this is. Maybe it's a dumb question. It's a dumb question because we're just reframing in the way that. Oh, they're image bearers. We need to. [00:46:12] Speaker B: How do we. [00:46:13] Speaker A: How do we take that thorn out of your side? So you're not. Yeah, we engage them or not, man. [00:46:18] Speaker B: I. Yeah, I think. I think that there's a lot of. Again, I think it's more a matter of wisdom than a matter of right and wrong. There are instances by which. And I think, Sean, you mentioned this earlier, you know, if you're both members at a local church, for us at Redemption Hill, we describe membership as we are, you know, by God's grace, discipling one another to be more and more like Jesus. Like, that's what we commit to when we commit to membership at the local church. So knowing that that's what we commit to. If. If a brother or sister is in. Let's say, let's assume that we think what they're saying and doing is sinful. Is that the assumption in this hypothetical? [00:46:54] Speaker A: I honestly. I honestly don't think so. I think it is. Again, a slight disagreement. That can be big in your mind. [00:46:59] Speaker B: Okay, maybe this is. [00:47:01] Speaker C: Go ahead. [00:47:01] Speaker B: I was just gonna say that I think so. If it's a slight disagreement in your mind, this is my opinion. I think that's more of a matter of your heart than it is that person. If it feels like a thorn in your side. [00:47:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:17] Speaker B: I think. I think you just need to. Yeah. Just do a little bit of work on that. [00:47:21] Speaker C: There we go. [00:47:21] Speaker A: So that was my question. How do we do that work and what does that work look like? That's what I was trying to ask. Sorry. It was hard for me to get to the. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:47:29] Speaker A: For that person, you know, like. [00:47:30] Speaker B: Like, what does it look like for you if. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Every time I see him, I'm frustrated. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Let's say I disagree with that guy, but I'm still going to act friendly and be nice to him and, like, all those things. Right. Like. [00:47:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:40] Speaker A: So some people aren't good at that. Maybe they don't know how. [00:47:42] Speaker C: Can we take a step back and this is. This was one of the areas we wanted to kind of. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Lay. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Oh, is it really? [00:47:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a good point. Go ahead, Brad. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Let me just say one thing, just to be specific, to answer the question. So we don't not answer the question. Right. Yeah. I think it could be a matter of your own heart, but I think if it's bothering you that badly, like, just get to know that person more. And if you already know them, if you're already friends with them, like have the conversation with them. Having a conversation that consists of disagreement of opinion is a good thing that we should all be doing 100% right. And learning how to do it in a really humble, curious. Like, help me understand where you're coming from when you post these things, because it has really bothered me and I don't know what that is. And just be honest about that. Right. Like that's. That's just part of what we commit to as Christians to do with each other. And who knows what the outcome of that conversation is. Maybe that person that feels like a thorn in your side is like, you know what, man, I've been really hot online. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Sure. [00:48:43] Speaker B: And that's a good reminder for me to step away. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Maybe so. Yeah. [00:48:46] Speaker B: Or maybe it doesn't end that way. [00:48:47] Speaker A: This is hyperbolic, by the way. I don't have the one on my side. [00:48:50] Speaker B: It's one of us, isn't it? [00:48:51] Speaker A: No, I don't really do that. [00:48:54] Speaker B: Anyways, that's all. That's all. So I think it could be you that you just need to. You need to. Scripture talks about us being quick to overlook offenses. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Like overlooking offense. Learn to do that. That's a good thing to do. Don't be so offended. [00:49:07] Speaker A: That's a good thing to talk about. Yeah. [00:49:08] Speaker B: And then number two is if you can't overlook it. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Then just have a conversation. [00:49:11] Speaker A: So we talk a lot about reconciliation. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Overlooking offenses is something we don't really discuss that much. [00:49:17] Speaker B: We should do that. We should be. We should be better by God's grace. I should. At overlooking offenses. [00:49:22] Speaker A: You know, I think I like. [00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:24] Speaker A: I'm the one that struggles to recognize what even I need to reconcile for because everything's overlooked. You know what I mean? And like, I might have. I've had some bitterness every once in a while, I guess, and I've had to reconcile for that, but it's very few and far in between. So I'm on the side that's like, who's having all these problems whenever we talk about reconciliation. What are we doing? [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:45] Speaker A: But I'm not that person. That's why I ask. Cause I'm like, man, I guess people, you know. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And that different issues. That situation doesn't even have to be a reconciliation situation. It could just be. Again, it's just a conversation. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:49:57] Speaker B: By which you're trying to understand another person and just be honest about where you've been with it all. And again, it could come out to be that you are the one who is too easily offended. [00:50:10] Speaker A: Right. So I think the last one thing we want to do is just ignore that person and still think the same things about them. Right. Sure. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Sean. [00:50:20] Speaker C: Well, specifically in regards to overlooking offenses, I think a good kind of way to think about that is am I more bothered about how this is impacting me? Am I, is my frustration or hard heartedness related to how this is impacting me? That doesn't mean that you never address it. Yes, it's contextual and there's lots of nuances, of course, but that might be. If that is the bulk of what's going on inside of you, that could be a good opportunity to say I'm going to overlook this. You see that happen in marriage all the time. [00:50:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:54] Speaker C: You know, like I don't need to address every little thing because most of the things is because it's bothering me. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:01] Speaker C: Maybe there's an actual offense there, dude. [00:51:03] Speaker A: So. [00:51:03] Speaker C: But I need to, I need to, I need to be okay with that. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:51:08] Speaker C: So. Well, I think in regards to your question, we probably need to be wrapping up pretty soon. Huh? I don't know how long it's been. [00:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah, we've got like a little bit less than 10 minutes. [00:51:18] Speaker C: Okay. Well, I think part of it depends on what the issue is. That's, you know, going back to your hypothetical of somebody posting and somebody being like, oh, I disagree with this. [00:51:30] Speaker A: Sure. [00:51:31] Speaker C: Within the context of the church or, or whatever. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Or you just see them on a regular basis, you know. [00:51:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I think baseline we should be moving towards a direction where we can have conversations with one another within the church in a healthy way and be okay with disagreeing with one another and still be unified around the gospel. I say that understanding that, that sometimes that's very difficult with heated issues specifically, but I think it's helpful. And maybe this is the last thing we can kind of close on is thinking about particular current issues that are common, that are prevalent in our day, that there's some of those issues that are going to be closed handed that are going to be, hey, if we disagree on this in a substantial way that it's going to be like in the category of I think this is probably sinful and we need to have a conversation about that. And then there's going to be lots of things that are more in the middle that are going to be open handed that we may feel strongly about, but that we can disagree on as Christians and have good healthy dialogue about. So what are some of those closed handed issues? Some of those closed handed issues. I think just to keep this brief and to kind of paint some extremes, [00:52:49] Speaker B: maybe you're talking about, when you say issues, you're not talking just general theology, Bible stuff. You're talking like hot issues in the culture. [00:52:56] Speaker C: I'm talking specifically about that hot issues in culture, political issues. We could have a similar conversation obviously about theology. Like if we're disagreeing about the Trinity or something, that's a close handed issue. Right. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about current issues, engaging people about. And I think that was the heart behind the question. Maybe we're totally off on the question and this is not right. But yeah, current issues. So close handed. I want to start on the far right, politically speaking because there are a handful of issues and we'll just hit a couple of them that, that are closed handed issues that are just clearly wrong. And so for, for example, like blatant racism, thinking that, you know, white Americans, white men, whatever it is. Yeah. There's different flavors of it. Right. Are somehow superior to other ethnicities or races, which. That's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. [00:53:57] Speaker A: I would almost just say racism. Not necessarily on a right or left, but. [00:54:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Well I'm. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Once we get to the left. Well, we talked about that beforehand. Like racism is on the right and the left. [00:54:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:06] Speaker B: It's not a, it is not a, it's not a quote unquote right problem. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Yeah, not at all. [00:54:11] Speaker C: No, it's on both it, it's of course racism is a heart issue. It's not a political issue. I'm just saying that on the right politically there are quote unquote people that will claim to be conservatives who are blatantly racist. Sure. I'm not talking about like the left leaning people who are calling everybody racist that disagrees with them. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about genuinely racist people who think people of different colored skin or different ethnicities are somehow inferior. Right. Again, this comes back to a biblical anthropology that is anti Christian. You're claiming to be Christian and you think somehow there are people, because of their skin color, backgrounds, nationality, whatever it is, that are somehow inferior, essentially inferior. Like they are inherently inferior. [00:55:07] Speaker B: You should say a name. [00:55:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. So like Nick Fuentes. [00:55:11] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I was going to say. I think, I think if you dropped. I think, I think if you, I think if you say a name, it's helpful. It's just helpful to specify that we're not. Again, we're not. Yeah. [00:55:20] Speaker C: Brad was, was like mouthing to me. [00:55:22] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm just saying. [00:55:23] Speaker A: Yeah, say the name. [00:55:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:25] Speaker C: Nick Fuentes. No, so he's a, he's just an example, right? [00:55:28] Speaker A: He, he. [00:55:29] Speaker C: There's, there's unfortunately millions of people that, that have that, that worldview. And again, it's a problem not just on the political right, but it's very prevalent. It's an issue. It needs to be called out. It is anti Christian. Okay. So that's a closed handed issue. So if we have somebody in the church who's posting things that are seemingly racist, whether you're politically right or left, whatever that is something that needs to be a conversation, but not what are you doing? Like a conversation asking questions. What did you mean by this? What was this? I really want to understand. And it's a conversation, you know, and it's. But that's a close handed issue, right? [00:56:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:07] Speaker C: There's other things. We could go on anything. We should, we should just, we should move on. So on the, the far left, we've already talked about, you know, transgenderism, LGBTQ ideology, the, the ideology that's behind that. Obviously a close handed issue. We've already talked about some of the, the basics of that. Abortion. You know, I think that's a huge issue as well within the church. I mean, you have, you even have the, the. What is he running for Senate, the guy. I'm blanking on his name, but Trivago or something. [00:56:39] Speaker B: Telo. [00:56:40] Speaker C: Yes, there it is. Okay, so professing Christian, who is, who is pro abortion, that's really bad. We're no longer talking about like pro choice. We're talking about pro abortion and pro life. Right. He's pro abortion. That, that, that cannot be tolerated because it's a, it's clearly against God's word and it's clearly, again, treating individuals as if they are not created in God's image. And so that is a close handed issue. So we could go on and on about those various, those are the more obvious things. But we also have things in the middle that are Open handed issues that I think is probably more of the common conversation because I think especially at Redemption Hill, most everybody listening to this is going to agree on these closed handed issues. Like, yes, that's wrong. And we need to stand firmly in the truth of what the scriptures talk about these things say about these things. [00:57:34] Speaker B: Before you get to the middle issues. Sorry, were you going to say something, Sky? [00:57:38] Speaker A: I wasn't really waving my hand to get attention. I was like, there's a fly. But also, but also I would just say like later we'll talk about this, I guess. But how to engage that as well? Like, you know, those close. [00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah. [00:57:51] Speaker C: I mean, just everything we've talked about so far applies to that totally human being created in God's image. What is your disposition? It's for their good. You might be angry at their position because it's an offense to God. [00:58:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:58:04] Speaker C: Let's take the racism thing for an example. We should be angry about racism because it is an offense to God and creatures created in his image. But we still want to engage that individual as somebody created in God's image. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, and love them. [00:58:19] Speaker C: And we want them to come to, to know the truth. The truth of the gospel and the truth of God's word has a much larger vision for humanity than what racism does. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Yeah. We would still love someone walking into the church that has any of these ideas. Right. Okay, let's make sure. [00:58:40] Speaker C: Whether you're. If you're a racist and you, please come to Redemption Hill. If you're embracing transgender ideology, please come to Redemption Hill. We want you to come. We will. We want to love you. We want to know you. We want to engage you. We want to be your friends. We want to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ to you and want you to come to know Jesus. Whether you're that or you're a professing Christian who really is just a, you know, a self righteous cultural Christian, we want you to come to know the Lord as well. [00:59:09] Speaker A: Hey, Fuentes, which one are you talking about? I'm just kidding. [00:59:13] Speaker C: I wasn't, I wasn't thinking that. I'm thinking about more of like a normal person that, that is, you know, we want everybody to know the Lord. Wherever, whatever ideology you're coming from, we want to engage them from a disposition of we love you and we want, we want to know you. We want to. We want you to know the gospel [00:59:34] Speaker B: is available to you. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's why I was saying what I was saying about the keeping the main Thing, the main thing when it comes to like at the end of the day, it is knowing Christ, it's embracing him as your Savior and your Lord. And you know, all of us apart from his grace are sinners and, and our sin expresses itself in a variety of diverse ways. [00:59:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:54] Speaker B: And we all need, you know, Jesus. And so keeping the main thing, the main thing prevents us hopefully from creating barriers to people who are made in God's image in any of these camps or categories, you know, from coming. [01:00:08] Speaker C: Yeah. So. [01:00:09] Speaker A: All right guys, do you have any last points you want to make? [01:00:12] Speaker C: Brad, were you really just open handed issues? [01:00:16] Speaker B: Huh? [01:00:16] Speaker C: Open handed, open handed issues. Just a couple. [01:00:18] Speaker A: Which one? [01:00:19] Speaker C: I just want to mention Immigration. Yeah. Immigration, economics, tax policy, you know, like, like I'm, you know, I'm a war. I'm going to be low tax. I think, I think taxes are bad. You know, high taxes are bad. We should be minimal. But somebody else can, can, can have a more liberal position. [01:00:38] Speaker A: As if they would say, I love taxes. They won't know. [01:00:41] Speaker C: No, but they would, they would say maybe the answer to some of the problem problems we have is higher taxes. Correct. Right. And I mean that in all seriousness, but that is an issue that I'm not going to be close handed on. [01:00:51] Speaker A: Right. [01:00:51] Speaker C: I would love to dialogue about that and that I think there are biblical principles and a biblical worldview that plays into how we think about those issues. They're not unimportant. But I'm just saying that's an open handed issue that we can come at it and seek to understand. Okay, why do I think, I think low taxes are better? Because I think that's better. Better for the flourishing of people, not for the flourishing of the rich, but better for the flourishing of people. Where somebody else might say, well, no, I think higher taxes, especially on the wealthy, is for the flourishing of people. And we disagree on that. Let's have a conversation about it. But it's open handed. It's not foundationally a clearly biblical right or wrong like these other close handed issues. So I just wanted to make that distinction. There's lots of open handed issues. Immigration we did mention, we wanted to maybe bring this up a little bit. Immigration is a huge issue right now, obviously. But again, coming back to the idea of biblical anthropology that shapes how we think about that issue, you might disagree with me in my perspective on immigration. We may disagree on that, but as Christians we have to be grounded in people being created in God's image. So even for example, as myself is probably going to be more you know, wanting more security along the border, that in no way means that I want people treated with less dignity. And so somebody who I disagree with, my goal would be, can we get to a place where we're agreeing on the value of humanity? And I want to, especially on, from my perspective, want to fight against people who would maybe not have a biblical anthropology. And so functionally, they're treating people as less. And I would want to push against that and say, even if we have to deport people, if that's necessary, we're not going to go into that. But I'm saying even if we had to, we should all stand firm on the reality that those are human beings that should be treated with respect and dignity. And that does not. You know, those things aren't mutually exclusive. We talked about that a little bit before the show. Yeah, but all of these issues can be thought through biblically. And there's lots of things that we can disagree on and still have fruitful conversations. And keeping the gospel in Christ at the center and thinking of it in terms of discipleship like we are. Our goal here is not to convince one another of what's right and wrong necessarily. [01:03:17] Speaker A: I don't know, dude. [01:03:18] Speaker C: There's situations where that needs to happen. [01:03:20] Speaker A: Right? [01:03:20] Speaker C: Of course, we've already talked about that. [01:03:21] Speaker A: Brad's about to put in a church tax. [01:03:23] Speaker C: But I'm saying that the goal is for us to be. To mature into the image of Christ, to be renewed in our thinking and our hearts and to be built up into the holy temple that God has for us. [01:03:36] Speaker A: Heck, yeah. [01:03:37] Speaker B: I think I just want to maybe in. I'm going to try it in 30 seconds, like, summarize the answers to the question. [01:03:47] Speaker A: Oh, that's an awesome idea. [01:03:48] Speaker B: So that the question. So that this question asker is like, all right here, like the. Because we talked about a lot of different things. Okay. [01:03:54] Speaker A: Actionable steps. [01:03:55] Speaker C: Tell me when you're starting and I'll time you. [01:03:57] Speaker B: No, don't do that. [01:03:59] Speaker A: I'll time you, dude. Not him. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Number. [01:04:01] Speaker A: Number. [01:04:02] Speaker B: So, number one, not everything is a matter of right and wrong. Sometimes it's a matter of wisdom. Okay? So if you feel pressure to have to engage, ask yourself the question is this. Do I think this is a right, wrong, black, white issue by which I am called by God, you know, because of my obligation to disciple this person, to engage in this issue. And if the answer is yes, the way in which you do that, seeing this person, remembering that they're an image bearer of God just like you are, and going into the conversation with curiosity. Right. So you don't have all the data points. And so because you don't have all the data points, go into it. Curious. Ask a lot of questions, seek to gather data before you make assumptions about motive. [01:04:48] Speaker C: And if you, if you're not sure whether you should engage it, I would also encourage you to ask others around. You ask people you're close with. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:58] Speaker C: To seek that wisdom. [01:04:59] Speaker B: For sure. Other Christians, pastors. [01:05:02] Speaker C: That doesn't count for your 30 seconds, by the way. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Nice. Thank you. And so I think, I think those are, you know, those are the main things. And then, you know, when you, if you end up having the. If it feels like it's a thorn in your side, you just can't get over it. You know, you need to consider the possibility that, that maybe you need to overlook the offense. And if you can't overlook the offense, have a person on person conversation, if at all possible, in person, at the very minimum, over the phone, by which you're able to, again, gather data and, and just, you know, have an honest conversation with another human being. So. Amazing couple of verses. Galatians 5. For you are called to freedom, brothers only. Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. The whole law is fulfilled in one word. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. So I just, I think that that's a good. Love your neighbor as yourself. You know, how do we do that while engaging? [01:06:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:06:11] Speaker C: And if. If this podcast has led to more questions, make sure you send them in. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Send them in. [01:06:18] Speaker B: Woo. [01:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a link in the show notes and there's a link on Slack for our members and there's links everywhere. We'll make it happen. This has been asking for a neighbor and thanks, guys. Appreciate y' all being here. [01:06:31] Speaker B: Thank you, man. [01:06:31] Speaker C: Thanks for running the board and whatever other technology you have over there. [01:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it should be. It should cut down next time. But anyway, whatever. It doesn't. All right, we will see you guys later.