Should Christians Gamble?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Oh, late 90s [00:00:04] Speaker B: with the lights on. All right. [00:00:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:06] Speaker C: Is that where you're gonna have the mics? Pretty good, right? [00:00:11] Speaker B: We gotta figure out what song this is first before we start. [00:00:14] Speaker C: I gotta find the. [00:00:21] Speaker B: Was that Sister Hazel? I didn't have a flavor. [00:00:26] Speaker A: I have no idea. Hey, Siri, what's the song that goes Chickadee China, the Chinese chicken. This is quoted from the song One Week, I'll barely. [00:00:50] Speaker C: What's up, everybody? This is asking for a neighborhood. We talk about God and we talk about Jesus, and we answer any questions you. Yes, you may have about God, faith, and what it means to follow Jesus. I'm your host, sky, and I'm here with two of the pastors from Redemption Hill Church, Brad Holcomb and Sean McCorkle. Today we're discussing the death and resurrection of Jesus. We are not discussing that. That is a nix. All right, redo. Dang it, guys. Dang it, guys. [00:01:22] Speaker A: That's. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Oh, you should just add that at the beginning, dude. It's fun. [00:01:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. We will be discussing that, I'm sure. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Of course. [00:01:29] Speaker C: But I've got something to ask you guys. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Are we going to go with it? [00:01:32] Speaker C: Huh? [00:01:33] Speaker A: Are we going with it? [00:01:33] Speaker C: We can. Yeah, of course. It doesn't really matter that much. I might cut out the jib. Jib, jab, or whatever. Whatever. It doesn't matter. So here we go, guys. Here we go. I actually. Brad, are you a cucumber guy or a pickle guy? [00:01:49] Speaker B: Pickle guy. 100%. Cucumbers are a waste of space. [00:01:55] Speaker C: Wow. [00:01:55] Speaker B: It's just water. Just green water compact into a thing. [00:02:00] Speaker C: So what do you add? Vinegar and pickles are. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Do I add vinegar to pickles? [00:02:04] Speaker C: I'm saying that. You're saying cucumbers are only water, but. Yeah, pickles are water and vinegar. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, they just taste better, man. Yeah, like spicy pickles. Get some of those. Like, sliced things are delicious. [00:02:15] Speaker C: Do you just eat them by themselves? [00:02:17] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Sean, that's a tough one. I like both. So I like. If I'm gonna have, like, just something to eat by itself, I'm definitely gonna pick a pickle every day. Not a sweet pickle, because those are disgusting. But like a normal dill pickle. [00:02:29] Speaker B: What do you mean? [00:02:30] Speaker C: It. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Like, the small ones are disgusting. [00:02:32] Speaker A: No, small dill pickles are great. Small, sweet dill pickles are disgusting. [00:02:36] Speaker B: No, dude. What? [00:02:38] Speaker C: Sweet relish. [00:02:39] Speaker B: They're delicious. [00:02:40] Speaker A: No, they're disgusting. [00:02:41] Speaker C: Do you eat tuna? [00:02:42] Speaker B: Not really. [00:02:42] Speaker A: No. I will. Sure. [00:02:43] Speaker C: Sweet relish. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Okay. Maybe in there. It kind of do you know of [00:02:47] Speaker B: another human being that just sits and eats cucumbers? [00:02:49] Speaker A: I. I would. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Oh, you would? [00:02:51] Speaker A: I love cucumbers. [00:02:52] Speaker C: The Asian dish. It's like. What is that? Cucumber salad? [00:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's got something in it, though. I would eat just a plain cucumber, but. Okay. So if I'm gonna have a salad, I'm not gonna put a pickle in my salad. I want a cucumber in my salad. If I'm just gonna eat a pickle or like, something by itself, I'll eat a pickle. Yeah, but would I eat a cucumber by itself? Sure. [00:03:11] Speaker C: I'm going to start calling you Nuance [00:03:13] Speaker A: Sean, because I nuance everything. Yeah. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Could just avoid salads. Could avoid salad. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Used to put salt on a cucumber and eat it. He used to do that with all kinds of fruits and vegetables. Just put salt on it and eat it by itself. [00:03:25] Speaker B: Do that with a tomato. [00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah. You would do that. He would do that with apples. Salt on apples. [00:03:31] Speaker C: Salt on. Yeah. Then the watermelon. [00:03:32] Speaker A: I mean, it's actually not that bad, but it's weird. [00:03:36] Speaker C: Well, I. I just was thinking about that because I'm. I'm writing a newsletter now, and, like, the newsletter, like I said, it puts me in a pickle, and I was like, why do we say that? Because everyone likes pickles that I've asked. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:48] Speaker C: Not everyone likes cucumbers. Right. [00:03:50] Speaker B: What do you like? [00:03:51] Speaker C: So why don't we just say that? Do you know a freaking cucumber? [00:03:54] Speaker B: You don't. You don't like cucumbers either? [00:03:56] Speaker C: Not that much, no. Yeah, I'll eat them like in salad with things. As long as they're together with something kind of like onions. [00:04:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:02] Speaker C: You know, no one bites into an onion. Same thing with cucumbers. No one does that. [00:04:04] Speaker B: True. [00:04:05] Speaker C: And if you do. Lunatic. You know what I mean? I'm just kidding. [00:04:09] Speaker A: I might do that. [00:04:10] Speaker C: All jokes. [00:04:11] Speaker A: I never have, but with it. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Wow. [00:04:14] Speaker A: By itself, I would not do that. [00:04:16] Speaker C: You love onion that much, though? [00:04:17] Speaker A: I do, yeah. [00:04:18] Speaker C: Got to have layers. [00:04:19] Speaker A: And I love onion. [00:04:20] Speaker C: Like Shrek. Well, cool, guys. Next question. Moving on the actual question, we have couple questions. Yeah, a couple. Well, a couple of questions. But first that we can start with, like, maybe it's easier. I don't know. It's. It's topical, and it's also relevant to our culture today. Recently, I would say recently, as in the last two years, you know, people are increasingly. Sports betting, it's become more prominent only because it's become more available Right. Not only, but one of the reasons, because it's become more available. So my question to you guys would be your standpoint on Christianity and gambling or just your view on gambling in general? And I just want to know what Yalls perspective is. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Let me maybe just lay some of the context and then I want to hear from you, Brad, on some of the thoughts on the morality of it and that kind of thing. But I think part of the reason why this is becoming such a hot button issue, I don't remember when it was we were just talking about this before the show, but there was a Supreme Court decision a few years back that basically put the decision on the legality of gambling back to the states. And so it's becoming more prevalent. It's obviously been prevalent for a long time, but it's now legal in a lot of contexts where it didn't use to be. So that's part of it. The other part is just technology and people. These companies are getting in front of people more easily through their phones, through apps. And we were just talking about prediction markets, people being able to. To get into gambling through means that aren't really labeled as gambling, but really that's what they are. Like if you bet that, you know, we were talking about like the mavericks win by 10 points. [00:06:16] Speaker C: Specific betray. [00:06:17] Speaker A: It's very specific. And they call that the prediction market, where really that's just straight up gambling. Right. So that kind of stuff is becoming more prevalent. And I think one of the pressing issues specifically right now that brings us to the front and center of our minds is that this is becoming more of an epidemic when it comes to younger people, specifically younger males, because they're. They're getting in. These companies are getting in front of them more easily. And so the statistics, I don't know what the statistics. Statistics are off the top of my head, but it's pretty concerning that that's happening. And so I think it's really prevalent, specifically bringing it back down to the local level, like within our church, as kids within our church start growing up, there's going to be more exposure than there used to be to this kind of thing. So that's just kind of general context. Brad, if you want to piggyback off of that or go into the morality aspect of it. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Would you give your opinion real quick? [00:07:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, first I would ask you guys another question, but you know, you think, man, you think that. Do you guys think it's any different than when we were. You guys are a little older than me. When we were in high school and you know, social media is a bigger deal. Right. It just became a thing. Right. Maybe specifically even Instagram for younger girls. So it became a problem. Right, because like you're all of a sudden you have this thing right in front of you all the time and now you're worried about what people think on the Internet, that kind of thing. It led to similar talks about what do we do for our kids because they're going to be addicted to these platforms. Because clearly the platform wants you on it. Why wouldn't it want you on it? So is this inherently, is it different than that? And I don't know if it is. My opinion on it would be that there's obviously nuance to gambling. I have a poker night with my friends. I do not feel convicted about that. We have a good time. And that's. That's true. And like, you know, it's still betting. It's still, I guess technically gambling under the term. Right. But in my, in my heart with God. It doesn't like mess that up. But you can ask the same question for like alcoholism and like, I don't know, any habit forming thing that's obviously habit forming by stats. Right. [00:08:45] Speaker A: So you're saying you would put it in the similar category of alcohol inherently is not bad, but if you abuse it or you know, clearly getting drunk is bad. Gambling is not inherently bad in all forms, but when abused, it's, it could be bad. Is that, that's basically. [00:09:02] Speaker C: That's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah, that's. That's pretty much it. You heard that hit the nail on the head there now. Am I. Yeah. My question, am I wrong? Just kidding. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, we, we talked again to. We did, we did make this comment that like the best conversations happen pre. You pressing record. Yeah, but that's not the case here. [00:09:25] Speaker C: We're trying to get better at that. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, we're trying to get better. [00:09:27] Speaker C: Everybody listening? [00:09:27] Speaker B: We'll just carry it over into right now. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Just to begin by categorizing it as a Christian liberty issue. Right. Like the scriptures don't explicitly prohibit gambling. And we, you know, Sean and I were at a conference a couple of weeks ago and one of the statements made that I thought was just really helpful was only the scripture, only the word of God can bind our conscience. We have a propensity, I think, within the church to want to bind one another's consciences with all sorts of things that the Bible doesn't explain explicitly or Necessarily even like imply that it's prohibited. That being said, so if it's a Christian liberty issue, like what you're describing, sky, this kind of like periodic hangout with some guys where you guys play poker and you bet or whatever, to me feels like a different thing than consistent sports gambling online. And you know, I'll just state my opinion on it. Like, I, I find that hard to justify. I, I find it hard to justify if you're a Christian, the, you know, utilizing the few resources you have, money, time, energy, brain space for that purpose. Like, it just doesn't seem, it doesn't seem fruitful to me. Like there are all sorts of, there's just so much to do in the thought of, you know, and the thought of leveraging, like I said, very, very limited resources in order to put forth in. That just doesn't, it feels like a wisdom issue, doesn't feel like it's wise and certainly I think it can cross over into sin when it becomes, you know, an obsession, an addiction, you know, something that somebody, a spouse is doing secretly behind their spouse's back and you know, all of these kinds of things. Jim, Jim Essien from the Paradox wrote an email a month ago or so about gambling and man, I just thought he did a really good job. So I, if you guys don't mind, I'm just going to read a little bit. I'm going to quote from, from Jim. So he said, I think gambling is a Christian liberty issue, meaning I don't think it's a sin for everyone every time a few bucks on the line while playing golf, a friendly hold em tournament at the house, betting squares at a Super bowl party for most Christians can participate with a clean conscience. But then he asks, but regular sports gambling. He goes on to talk about the spirit bringing conviction. It's possible that, that for those who do this, that their conscience has, has actually been seared. He, he quotes this statistic that like 48% of men have an online sports gambling account, which is pretty concerning. He says our generation, he's talking to men. Our generation already faces alarmingly low testosterone. Studies show a generational decline of about 1% per year since the 1980s, meaning men today often have 20 to 30% less than our fathers or grandfathers at the same age. So we truly can't afford to waste what little we have on gambling's empty thrills. So just thought that that was, I don't know, I thought that that was a good perspective and just, you know, thinking about the, the grander issue Is that we've been delivered into the kingdom of God. We've been given very limited time and resources and brain and all of that. Like, I think the more important question to ask than is gambling sinful or is it not? Is. Are we. Is. Is the activity. Is what we're doing aiding and fueling our love for Jesus and our investment into his kingdom, or is it not? [00:13:01] Speaker A: And. And our witness. Yeah, I think to the. To the watching world as well. [00:13:05] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Why. Why do you think the issue is so prevalent among men? It's not that women aren't doing it at all, but it's overwhelmingly young men that are being sucked in. Why do you think that is? [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, his. His hypothesis is, is that it has to do with testosterone. It actually has to do with this kind of, like. I don't know if that's true or not, but this kind of, you know, drive that. Not that it's not prevalent in women because, you know, women have a, you know, desire and drive to compete and take risks and those kinds of things. It's just. It's higher in men. [00:13:43] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Scientifically, your initial. The initial action to, like, get into it is just going to be more prominent in men because of testosterone. [00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:53] Speaker C: And, like, women will still be able to do that, of course, but they. It'll be like, before you do it, they'll have some more inhibition. [00:14:00] Speaker B: There's a desire. There's a desire for thrill, adventure, and risk. [00:14:04] Speaker C: And once you're doing it, it's like the psychological loop. Right. [00:14:07] Speaker B: Stepping into the uncertainty of something and winning and then losing actually does more [00:14:11] Speaker C: than winning for doing it again. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:12] Speaker C: In your brain. So anyway, that's. Course. But, yeah, But, Sean, what do you think about this? [00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I wouldn't strongly disagree with any of that. I don't know enough to know. I think I would have hesitation to reductionistically saying this is more likely to happen because of testosterone. I would imagine things are just more complicated than that, but that certainly would be a part of it. [00:14:37] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:38] Speaker A: So, yeah, I mean, that's the only thing I would say, but it's definitely a reality with young men. And I think at least we can speak broadly that part of that has to do with how men are wired in being created by God to be who they are as men. And so there's positive aspects of that that are being fueled. That this vice, I guess if we could say that is grabbing hold of some of these good things, Men being adventurous and Wanting to be thrilled and all of these things, however you want to. Taking risks. Yeah, these things can be good if they're pointed in the right direction. And so I think gambling is an outlet for that that feeds off of how men are created and wired by God. And so I think that's what Brad. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Brad's trying to highlight is it's not the issue isn't necessarily gambling itself, but what it's doing internally and what's driving it. And how do we reorient that and how do we repent of that, the way that that's playing out and turn it towards more positive things like seeking God's glory in his kingdom and utilizing our resources for the good of others and not for this thrill seeking or whatever it is like reorienting those positive things that are inside of men towards God's kingdom. I think that's what you're highlighting. Is that correct? [00:16:15] Speaker B: It is, yeah. And the only other thing I'll add is, sky, could you turn me down, like, just a smidge? [00:16:22] Speaker A: Am I yelling in your ears? [00:16:23] Speaker B: No, I went from like, sorry, I couldn't. I couldn't hear myself at all. And then. [00:16:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Only the other thing I'll highlight is. So does it aid in your. In your affections for Jesus or not? Like Paul says, all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful. [00:16:38] Speaker C: So if I win, I'm just kidding. [00:16:41] Speaker B: So does it do that? But then secondarily, like, is it good for society? Is you participating in weekly or monthly or whatever, daily online gambling, good for the world. World. Is it good for your family? Is it good for the, you know, the. The people that God has put in your life to serve and to care for and all of these kinds of things? And man, my suspicion is no. [00:17:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Like, this is not a net benefit for our society. It's not a net benefit for your family. It's not a net benefit for your budget and your time and your brain space. Again, there's just so. There's so much good work to do, so much good kingdom work to do, and we have so little time that I think that there's absolutely not just a place for, but a necessity for leisure and recreation and fun and laughter and all those kinds of things. But I think that there are millions of ways and places to get that outside of this. This doesn't feel like a good thing to me. [00:17:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Would you think that it's just like a, you know, more of an addiction thing? Like, because anything you're addicted to. Right. It's going to pull you away from most of the time. God. Right. So like recognizing that, being like, oh, this is something that's, you know what I mean? [00:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker C: It's totally good. [00:17:50] Speaker A: A lot of different ways. [00:17:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Final thoughts on, on my end would be for those who, like, you're saying yourself, well, you know, whatever. You play Texas hold', Em, Poker. [00:18:00] Speaker C: What I play. Oh, yeah, poker. Yeah, poker. Texas hold'. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Em. In that kind of scenario, again, you're doing that in a, in the specific context. It's not something that's consuming you. Sure. You know, it's very limited in what you're doing. My encouragement for those who are engaging in that kind of thing would be, number one, to just prayerfully consider your own heart and is that drawing you towards this direction and maybe it needs to be something you don't do or maybe like you say, you do it in freedom. And it's not anything after, you know, after that time with friends, it's not drawing you into that direction of gambling more. Number two, I think this is a context similar to drinking where we should be really considerate of our brothers and sisters. So if in that context, if you're, you know, hanging out with some friends, it's good time to fellowship and you're engaging one another, having conversations like, hey, how are you in this particular area? What's happening? Are you, do you have these things on your phone? You know, is this potentially fueling something that's causing a brother to stumble, brother or sister to stumble? So I think that would be something else to consider. And then lastly would be just for parents, especially in the church, we've got a lot of young kids that are growing up, some that are already teenagers in the church. I think we need to be hyper aware of these kind of things that are happening because they're, they're, they're more readily available, like we've already said, than they've ever been before. So being just very aware of what's happening on your children's phones, on your children's devices as they get older, I think that would be my last encouragement. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah. What's the line? The line from the Anxious Generation book is that children born after 1995 are overprotected from the real world and underprotected from the virtual one. You know, that we're just so hyper vigilant to protect them from danger on the outside, when in reality it's, you know, the virtual world is a much more dangerous one most of the time. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. [00:19:57] Speaker C: Ongoing. Too ongoing. You mentioned repentance, Sean, So we can get into that a little bit, I think. [00:20:02] Speaker B: We. [00:20:02] Speaker C: We had a question come in. Are you on the questions, potentially by chance, on your laptop? [00:20:08] Speaker A: I have the ones that you sent. [00:20:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Would you like to. Do you want. You asked for more context on the question about repentance. We got. And I'm just making sure. [00:20:17] Speaker A: Let's just go. Let's just use your, Your. Your simplified question. [00:20:21] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:21] Speaker A: And then we can get in the context. [00:20:23] Speaker C: That's fine. Yeah, yeah. So for the one that submitted this question, you know, I just made it simpler for a reframe, say, okay, great, let's do it. Basically, it's. It's. How do we. How do we, I don't know, handle repentance as. As Christians? And what does it look like? Because, you know, is it good enough? Essentially, just what you might be thinking whenever you're going through that. [00:20:47] Speaker B: That part of Christianity, like, is my repentance good enough? [00:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Is my repentance good enough? [00:20:53] Speaker B: Am I good enough? Oh, yeah. [00:20:55] Speaker C: How do you wrestle with that? [00:20:56] Speaker B: You know, how do you know if your repentance is repentant enough? [00:20:59] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:21:01] Speaker B: yeah. It's a great question. Yeah. There's one theologian, I forget who it was, who said, our repentance needs repentance. It's like, you know, I would. I just. I'll start and I'll just give a very brief. Like, it's the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about this question, because as a pastor and personally, but, but I have a lot of conversations with people about assurance, like, how do I know I'm saved? And so many people struggle with that. [00:21:28] Speaker C: Oh, do I do sometimes? [00:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:29] Speaker B: I mean, it's. It's a legit struggle. And the Bible calls Satan the accuser, which means, like, one of his main prerogatives in life is to accuse Christians and to cause us to doubt our salvation. And so, man, repentance, it all starts with Jesus, with the person of Jesus. And so, like, when. When we're talking to somebody about somebody's, like, how do I know my repentance is strong enough? I would. I would try to encourage that person to take their eyes off of their repentance and put their eyes onto Jesus first and foremost. Like, putting your eyes onto the person of Jesus and what he's accomplished on the cross. When he said, it is finished, that meant that all of your sin and mine was completely cast away, put behind the back of God, put under his feet. As far as the east is from the west. When we put our eyes on Jesus, we believe upon Jesus. We are forgiven. That's the promise of God, and that. That's the basis of our hope. And this idea of repentance that we'll define in just a moment really flows from eyes that are set on Jesus, not on your repentance. If your focus is on is it strong enough or am I sorry enough, or any of those kinds of things, then I think you're going to drive yourself crazy. I don't think any of our repentance is ever going to. None of it's adequate enough to earn the favor of God, if all that makes sense. [00:22:51] Speaker C: It does make sense. Yeah. [00:22:53] Speaker B: I'm just saying that as a starting point, it begins with Jesus. [00:22:58] Speaker C: Right. I'll have a. I'll have a question after that. If we want to get into the. What repentance is now at this point, what's your. [00:23:05] Speaker B: What's your question after that? [00:23:06] Speaker C: Well, my question after that would be like, you know, this is more relatable where it's. I might be good with that. I'm good. I'm focused on Jesus. That's great. But what if, you know, my spouse says something or my friend says something, or my co worker says something that will take you back into that. Does that make sense? Maybe they're not actually saying they disapprove, but they're saying something where it's like, oh, that thing I did was wrong. You know what I mean? [00:23:31] Speaker B: Like, they're telling you the thing you did was wrong. [00:23:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Inadvertently. They're not directly saying that. I'm saying that in conversation. That can happen. Right. Where you second guess it. And so is it. Every time that happens, you want to, like, you've got to turn back to Jesus. Right? [00:23:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker B: And again, we've said this at Redemption Hill, it's one look at sin and ten looks at Jesus. And so the reason I say, you know, the beginning point, the focal point ought to be the person and work of Jesus is because, like, if I'm. If I'm thinking about what Christ accomplished for me on the cross, that he's taken away my sin, he's forgiven me, but that it was my sin that put him there, then it will, by the grace of God, result in me typically hating my sin more and wanting to turn from it, which is what the word repentance means. Repentance is a turning point. Like, it's a turning away from something. Repentance is turning from sin. Faith is turning to Jesus. Does that make Sense. Yep. So what do you think, Sean? [00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the heart of the question that was coming in was like, the individual was, I know that my salvation is in Christ alone, but I'm struggling to understand how walking in repentance is related to that. And it sounds like, from what I understood in the question, that there's maybe some confusion about the reality of justification through Christ's finished work alone by faith in him, which is what Brad's talking about. And then what does repentance look like? And is that a separate thing? Is it connected? Is it part of your salvation? I think they're clear that that's not the case, but I think functionally they're questioning, like, well, it feels like this is a work I'm supposed to do, but I'm not saved by my works. And so how does that connect? And so a lot of different ways we can go with this, which I'm sure we're going to dig into some of the things, but I think from our circles or our spheres of Protestant thinking, one of my kind of takeaways recently, and as I've been contemplating these kind of things, I think we have such a desire to keep the main thing, the main thing, which is Jesus and his finished work, as we should, of course. Right? That's where everything flows out of that. We almost unintentionally diminish the reality of what that life looks like now that we are in Christ and living this life of repentance. Because we're always afraid that, okay, if we put too much emphasis on this, it's going to unintentionally diminish this salvation by grace over here, versus thinking of it in terms of now that I'm in Christ, now I have everything I need to live this life and walk out of this salvation, which is a life of repentance, is a life of growing in holiness, a life growing in righteousness. Like, I think sometimes we're even afraid to say that because we're like, oh, no, all of our righteousness is in Christ, which it is the only way we can stand before God is in Christ and his righteousness. But there's also this very clear reality in Scripture where we are to be growing in righteousness, in holiness in this life, not to earn anything, but to live out of the righteousness that we have in Christ. And I think you say it often like, there's this. How do you phrase it? There's a declarative righteousness that we have in Christ. That's not the word you use. And then there's this experiential righteousness, positional righteousness that's in Christ alone through faith in his finished work. But there's also this reality in Scripture of us growing in holiness and righteousness now. And that is, I think, what this individual is getting at. How do we walk in repentance and grow in holiness now and maintain this clarity on our justification through the finished work of Jesus alone? [00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's what I'm trying to get at is. And Sean and I actually, for anyone who cares, Sean and I got into a really healthy, good debate in front of a group of our guys at the conference that's related to this kind of Right. But I think that's what I'm saying is. I'm saying that I don't think we can, though. They're two different doctrines. Justification, which is that we are made right before God through faith in Jesus alone, and sanctification, which is our growth in the Christian life. That they are two different doctrines, but man, they are intrinsically tied. So what I'm trying to communicate is that I think we do grow in repentance and holiness and obedience and all of those kinds of things by recentering our focus on the person and work of Jesus. I think that's the means by which these things happen. And maybe this is just what I hear from counseling is I see more of a tendency to, okay, I know that I'm made right with God through faith in Jesus, but now I need to live a holy life as if they're totally disconnected things. And what I'm saying is, if you want to live a holy life now, and we should all want that if you're a Christian, Christian, keep your eyes on Jesus. Because the more I love Jesus, the more I'm going to want to turn away from my sin. The more I hate my sin, the more I love His Word and His law and all of these kinds of things. It's because I love Jesus and because of what he's done for me by making me holy and righteous in his sight and cleansing me of all of my sin, that I want to turn from it. So I'm tying the two together and saying, this is how we grow in repentance. [00:29:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's what. And I think that's where we ended up landing is I like how Calvin used to do this a lot in his thinking is making distinctions without separating. So there is a distinction between the declarative righteousness that we have in Christ through his finished work and faith in Him. And the ongoing work of growing in holiness and righteousness or sanctification. There is a distinction between the two, but they are not separated. They can't be separated. You can't have justification without sanctification, and you certainly can't have sanctification without justification. And so this idea of, and I think this is where we kind of were, as we were dialoguing about this, coming to this reality of what really grounds these things is what Calvin would call union with Christ. And this is this reality that now, by God's grace, through the Holy Spirit working in us and through the gospel message of Jesus Christ has given us faith and unified us with the Son. And so all that Christ has done is ours in him. And that out of that union that we have with Christ and all of his benefits being given to us, his, the forgiveness of sin and righteousness and all of these things out of that union, we now can walk in repentance and walk in obedience to God. And it's not separated from justification. It's grounded in that. Or guess what I'm saying is it's grounded in union with Christ, that then everything else flows out of that. I think I got my mixed up a little bit. Help clarify what I'm trying to say. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think. Well, let me just pause for a second. What do you think, Sky? What are your thoughts about. [00:31:38] Speaker C: I think that one thing I want to try to do is just frame this answer in the case of actual day to day life. And so you guys, obviously everyone might struggle with anxiety or something like that, right? [00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:55] Speaker C: When you're in that, I mean, do you guys actually. [00:31:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:57] Speaker C: Okay. When you're in that, is there something that you do that helps you get out of that? What helps you get out of that? [00:32:05] Speaker B: Out of anxiety in general or anxiety as it pertains to this topic in [00:32:09] Speaker C: general, day to day. Let's say you're, you're feeling anxious one day and you're like, man, how do I get out of this? How do I, how do I stop the spiral or whatever you're thinking, right? [00:32:17] Speaker B: How do you do that, man? That's, that's a. So I, I struggled. I mean, I was diagnosed with a high anxiety disorder in college. Okay. So like this is right before I became a Christian, but after I became a Christian, I, for years I was, and this is a different conversation for a different day. [00:32:32] Speaker C: Sure. [00:32:33] Speaker B: I can't, you know, struggled with tremendous mental chaos on a day by day basis. And it was, it was really hard. And so I still, like, by God's grace, don't deal with it to that severity. I still do struggle with anxiety on a fairly regular basis. And melancholy and, like, all those kinds of things. Yeah, I think it's different things for. In different moments, man. I, you know, I think one consistent thing that I try to do is to. And how do I want to frame this? Like, just receive the reality of what I feel in that moment and not try to not feel that thing. [00:33:20] Speaker C: Okay. [00:33:20] Speaker B: So, like, if I'm. So if I'm anxious, my tendency before would have been to be like, don't be anxious. Bible says, don't be anxious. Don't be anxious. And then you get anxious about the fact that you're anxious. And so I think just receiving, like, I'm anxious right now. Yeah, I'm worried right now. This is a feeling. [00:33:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:38] Speaker B: It's not going to kill me. It doesn't mean I'm losing my mind. It doesn't mean that I'm a terrible Christian. [00:33:45] Speaker C: Right. [00:33:46] Speaker B: This is something I feel. And then inviting Jesus into that moment. [00:33:49] Speaker C: Okay, that's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. So, like, if I'm in a position where I'm down on myself because I've done something wrong and it requires repentance, luckily, repentance has already been given to me, but I just am not in that moment. I'm trapped, you know, I'm mentally trapped because I'm like, I can't get out of that cycle of thinking that I'm too wrong and don't deserve this thing. [00:34:08] Speaker B: That's where I think the. I think you reminding yourself of this positional thing that we're talking about, that reminding yourself one of. Of who Christ is. [00:34:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:20] Speaker B: And who you are in Him. [00:34:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:23] Speaker B: That's speaking truth into your feelings. [00:34:25] Speaker C: And practically, I can't tell myself, like, you know, just like, you can't say, like, don't be anxious. I can't just say, like, it's been done for me. Why do I care? Because it, like, makes you think about that thing. Like, oh, wow, I'm a bad Christian because I even care about this right now. You know what I mean? Yeah, that can happen. There's like a cycle. [00:34:44] Speaker A: What do you mean it's been done for me? What are you talking about? [00:34:46] Speaker C: Jesus has died for me, so why do I care? I shouldn't be worried so much about my wrong that I did. Right. That's what I'm saying. And then you're thinking about that because you know what I mean? It's the same cycle as. Oh, don't be anxious now. I'm thinking about being anxious. And am I wrong for that? You know, that kind of thing? [00:35:01] Speaker B: Well, I think in Sean, you'll speak well into this man. But, you know, it's. It's not. It's not bad or wrong or abnormal to feel wrong about things, about wrong things we do right. Like, it's actually a gift of grace. So if you do something you shouldn't do, if you, you know, if and when we sin, we will sin when we sin. To feel bad about it is not a bad thing. [00:35:23] Speaker C: That's. [00:35:23] Speaker B: That's right. So Paul, Second Corinthians, Paul says he talks about this idea of. Of worldly grief and godly sorrow. Worldly grief essentially is a turning inward and, you know, navel gazing. It's. I'm so bad. I'm so bad. It's what Judas did. [00:35:41] Speaker C: Right, Right. Okay. [00:35:43] Speaker B: Peter, on the other hand, denied Jesus also. But Peter would have kind of embodied what Paul talks about with this idea of godly sorrow that leads to repentance, that leads to life. It's a recognition of, I was wrong, I sinned. And then it's a looking to Christ and his finished work on your behalf. That's repentance and faith. Yeah, I have sinned. I look to Jesus, and I trust that what Jesus did on the cross is enough for me to cover all of that sin. And that because of what Jesus did on the cross, I'm now a son of God. So you can preach to yourself the reality of who you are right now, even in the midst of that sin. [00:36:24] Speaker C: Yeah, in those moments. For me, I'll just clarify just for some relatability, if I'm struggling with that and I think that I'm wrong or I'm not good enough. That type of vibe, that type of mental thing that happens with repentance, it always takes someone else, like, praying about it with me for some reason, because I know I can look to Jesus. Yes, he's right there. He's awesome. He did everything for me. I can remind myself of that. It might help a little bit, but I think it's, like, similar to whenever I've felt anxiety, which has only been like, twice in my life, as, you know, real anxiety. I guess I didn't recognize what that was until, you know, recently before Easter, you know. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker C: And you prayed for me. Well, that's the only thing that broke the chain. And I think that I'm right. I'm trying to recognize that because, like, there's things we can think about. And know about ourselves that will help us in the moment rather than just remembering. I'm not saying that's not the goal. The goal is to remember Jesus, but [00:37:24] Speaker B: practical application, part of what the church is for man. [00:37:27] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:28] Speaker B: The hands and feet of Jesus to. And with one another, to. To minister to one another in a physical, tangible way. That is. That is a. It's a. It's a. An opportunity for us to be physically reminded of Jesus's through one another. [00:37:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Sean, what do you think about this stuff? [00:37:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. One of the things I thought of as you were talking just then was there oftentimes I feel like, is a general sense of, like, I feel like I shouldn't be feeling this way, but it's not like a specific conviction. And I think first off, just taking a step back and getting a correct understanding of the reality of what it means to be in Christ. It does not mean that everything is great and everything's going to be flowing wonderful now that we're in Christ. Right. There's still this flesh that's warring against us. There is a genuine, real spiritual battle that's happening around us, even though that's hard, especially with our modern thinking, to really embrace that reality. But it is a real thing that's happening. And so I think having that perspective, number one, gives us a. It humbles us to say, I don't have it all together. I am weak. I can be fine one moment, and the next moment I can be full of anxiety and worry, and I don't even know why. That's just an indication of how frail we are at the same time also understanding that we are being attacked spiritually. So it's very possible and likely that your anxiety that you were feeling, yes, your flesh, and there's sin involved there almost always, but there's also that spiritual attack that's happening, and prayer is a antidote to that. And the Lord likes and desires to work through prayer to help us. [00:39:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:24] Speaker A: And so it's. It's not always just about sin. There's spiritual battles that are happening. [00:39:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:39:28] Speaker A: And so we must be prayerful in that regard. And I think. I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that I. I think when we're talking about repentance, it's not just this simple formula, but there is this reality of the goal of it in many ways, at least from my own experience. And I think what we see in Scripture is to humble ourselves. One of our memory verses for old testament is 2 Chronicles 7, 14. And he. [00:40:00] Speaker C: Are you going to lay it out? [00:40:01] Speaker B: Memory verse. [00:40:02] Speaker C: Here we go. [00:40:02] Speaker A: I'm not good on the spot. But it's basically the Lord speaking to Solomon in a vision. And he's saying, if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear them from heaven and I will forgive their sin and heal their land. That's the whole verse. [00:40:25] Speaker C: Nice. [00:40:25] Speaker A: But it's this idea of humbling ourselves before God. We know that we are not what we ought to be. And so the first step of repentance is humbling ourselves before God. [00:40:37] Speaker C: Right. [00:40:37] Speaker A: And seeking him in prayer. And then secondly, I think that's kind of a general thing, but I think when we're talking about specific repentance, anxiety or whatever it is, the Spirit is going to give us specificity when there's something that we need to repent of. And oftentimes we don't get that. Like in Romans 8, you know, he's talking about, I don't. Oftentimes I don't even know what to pray for. And the Spirit is interceding for me. But there is oftentimes when we're talking about repentance, it's. I have this, I send in this specific way. I am, am trusting in this thing instead of God. I'm. I lied. You know, I had this evil and wicked thought. Right. You know, all of these things that are present, those are specific realities. [00:41:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:41:22] Speaker A: And things that are in our hearts and things that we do that need to be repented of. [00:41:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [00:41:29] Speaker C: It does, yeah. Yeah. I think I was trying to, to tie this in. I was trying to make the connection that anxiety is one of those feelings that you can get stuck in a mental loop and so can you with repentance. And that's why I was tying those two together. Not necessarily saying you need to repent from anxiety, which you do, but I just meant that's the connection. So if you're listening. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe we can go into some of some more practical stuff. I think this is at least practical. This would be a framework from somebody like John Owen on the mortification of sin. [00:42:04] Speaker B: You explain who John Owen is very briefly. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Yeah. He's a 17th century English Puritan who wrote a lot in the 17th century, who was used a lot by God, still being used by God in his works, and also experienced a tremendous amount of suffering. I believe he lost every single one of his children. Whoa, 11 or so 11. He outlived all of them. So just a tremendous amount of suffering. Anyways, he wrote this wonderful book on the mortification of sin, which is essentially coming from, I think, I don't have it in front of me, but I think it's Romans 8, 13 where it's this reality of put your sin to death, which is what mortification means. Put it to death, the mortification of sin. And he famously said, be putting sin to death or it will be putting you to death. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Always be killing sin or it'll be killing you. [00:43:00] Speaker A: There you go. So true mortification. What does it look like to put our sin to death? And here's just an overview and then I'd love to hear yalls thoughts. Okay, so this would be true mortification, a spirit empowered work. This is a holy spirit empowered work. Meaning the contrast would be it's not merely a human effort to just change your behavior. It's a spirit empowered work that does something internally in you. It's aimed at the number two. It's aimed at the root of sin. So again, it's getting underneath the anxiety. Why am I anxious? And it's not just going after the behavior. How can I not be anxious? But why am I anxious? So again, going after the root number three, it involves weakening sin's power and influence over time. I thought that was really helpful because oftentimes I feel like we want to have the answer now, like I'm anxious and I don't want to be anxious anymore. [00:43:54] Speaker C: The reality is same brother. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah. You're going to be struggling with that. Right. It's not likely that that sin, like lust for example, it's not going to go away until the Lord returns or until we die most likely. Right. For most people. But how, how do we by God's grace and by his spirit be putting that to death in such a way where its influence and its power is becoming less and less and less. I think that's a helpful perspective. So we're not just like, gosh, why am I still struggling with this? And like Brad's saying, we just turn into navel gazers. [00:44:26] Speaker C: Right. With gambling. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Like for a second, let's take, let's, let's see how has God grown you in this area and not just look at the failures, but how much has God's grace freed you from this and how is he weakening the power of that sin? Okay, so that's true mortification as Owen would outline it. And then maybe some of the contrast, the false mortification of sin. And then I'll stop and let Y' all chime in. So the contrast to those things would be external discipline only. So behavior modification without heart change, that would be an indication that it's not true repentance or true mortification of sin. Right. That's an outward external behavior only. Not that the external behavior is not important. It is, but it's not coming from a genuine heart change. Okay. Second would be a religious performance, again, without inward transformation. So connection. Or it's connected with the first one, but it's this idea of just, like, trying to be cleaned up on the outside but still having a heart that is, for example, like, maybe you're not watching pornography, but you're eaten up with lust inside, and you're not doing anything about that. And then thirdly, self reliance instead of dependence on the spirit. And I see this play out in a lot of ways. Like, when you're doing well, you're like, hey, I'm doing great. You know, this is awesome. I'm good. And you're not praying as much. You're not reading your Bible as much. [00:45:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:45:54] Speaker A: And that is a clear indication that you are relying on yourself, not praising God for the work he's doing and then letting that humble you even more to say, God, please give me more of you and help me to continue to put this to death. [00:46:08] Speaker C: I mean, a connection. Another, like, you know, branch of that is probably relying on other people versus spirit versus God, you know? [00:46:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:15] Speaker C: So because, yeah, that can happen a lot with spouses. Right. You rely on them more than you probably should, and you're like, wait a second. You should be looking to Jesus, you know? [00:46:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's good. [00:46:24] Speaker A: What are yalls thoughts on that specific. [00:46:30] Speaker C: I won't say that I have any thoughts on it because we'll move on after this and tie it into our next question. But, Brad, if you got something you [00:46:36] Speaker B: want to say, do you feel like for you personally, this is a. This is a pastoral moment now? Do you feel like. Do you feel like for you personally, that that is helpful to think about it? Like, because you talked about kind of like, this entering into this loop, like, struggling with this loop. [00:46:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Is my repentance good enough? Does that bring any clarity to you personally? [00:46:55] Speaker C: You know, I'll be honest. None of this stuff. I don't think the repentance. Cycling my repentance and all that is really a personal struggle of mine. I was trying to be more relatable to the. To the listeners. [00:47:06] Speaker B: That's fair. [00:47:07] Speaker C: And so if. But. But the thing is, is it's similar. The Loops are all similar. It's all this thing where Satan's lying and you're like, man, I'm the worst. And you know what I mean? It's a very similar stuff for me. It's more performance based. So like if I struggle to do something well then I'm like, you know, I'm just crap, you know. Yeah, that can happen for sure. That's personal. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:28] Speaker A: So that, does that stuff help with that self reliance? [00:47:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think what, that's the reason I, I don't know for sure. This is my theory. That's the reason that it's so good for me to get someone else to pray for me. Because I'm like putting, literally putting myself aside. Because even if I pray for myself and I'm like, Jesus, help me, I'm not saying it doesn't work, it does work. But also I'm still in it. It's still me and God. And if I like go and ask someone else, it's like it's not me and God anymore. You know what I mean? It's like someone else can help me out. Like it's different. [00:47:58] Speaker A: Well, 100%. Like we need one another. Like it shouldn't be something that's being done in isolation. But I think in those moments where you're like stuck, it's like you saying it's you praying to God but you feel you're, you're stuck, need to bring somebody else in. [00:48:13] Speaker C: Of course. [00:48:15] Speaker A: I think a helpful heart level question in general when we're talking about repentance, I think this is helpful is is this leading me to deeper humility and neediness before God? Is this driving me to see how much I need God and his grace and the death of Jesus on the cross for my sins? And it's humbling me to the point where I'm desperate for that and I want more of that, I want my mind saturated in that. But if that is what it's leading you to, then I think you're on the right track when it comes to repentance. If it comes to, if it's leading you down the path of self reliance, okay, I can figure this out. I can change my behavior. I cannot struggle with this anymore. I think that's an indication that maybe you're on the wrong path. Is that helpful distinction? One of them, as Brad was saying earlier in our other discussion, is a, is a very Christ centered, humble disposition before him. And the other one is a self centered perspective. [00:49:20] Speaker C: Right, Agree, agree with that. Yeah, Good questions, Brad. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Now, it's. Yeah, it's a great explanation, man. I was just. Last thing I was thinking about repentance is in. Sean, I think you mentioned this, man. It's. It is an actual turning. Right. Like, I think when. Sometimes when we get into these conversations where we talk about. And I'm Again, I'm thinking pastorally here, like, with. In real conversations with people, just a deep sorrow over the sin. Right. And that. That's a part of it. Like, part of it is feeling that sorrow and looking to Jesus and then looking to Jesus. It's actually, you know, by the Spirit's power, it's turning from it. And I think turning from it. And by turning from it, I mean, like Spurgeon would say, you know, it's like if you're in a country and you leave that country to go to another country by crossing a bridge, you cross the bridge into the new country, and then you burn the bridge behind you. And, you know, that could look a lot of different ways. [00:50:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:50:22] Speaker B: For a lot of different manifestations of sin. But I do think that it's healthy for a Christian again, in loving Jesus, it is right and normal to hate sin more and to want to put that remaining sin to death by the power of the Spirit. The good news is that it's already been crucified. Like, all of that sin has already been put to death in one sense, at the cross. And so you're fighting from victory. It's not like you're trying to make your way to God. God is with you. He's in you. He's on your side, and he's empowering you to burn the bridge, you know, of whatever that sin is. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would say it's not only. It's not only good, but it's necessary. [00:51:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Like, it's. It is. If you are. If you were a Christian and you do not hate sin. Yeah, I would. I would. I would be concerned about that. [00:51:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:10] Speaker C: Not. [00:51:11] Speaker A: Do you hate sin enough? [00:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:12] Speaker A: You know, people, we always feel like we don't hate it enough. Right. That's. That's this idea. We're progressing forward. We're never right where we want to be. But do you hate sin at all? As a Christian? If we don't hate sin, that's problematic, I think, on a really practical level. And to end this discussion, Jesus, when he's having John write to the seven churches in Revelation, I can't remember exactly how many, but I think five out of the seven, he calls them to repent. These are churches that are in Christ. These people love Jesus. They're saved by his grace alone, but in various ways. They're walking in sin, some of them in sexual immorality. Some of them are eating meat sacrificed to idols. And Jesus doesn't say, oh, it's okay. I've already died for that. He says, no, repent. Repent, or I'm going to come in judgment. God doesn't take sin less seriously because Jesus died on the cross. Jesus dying on the cross gives us a picture of the seriousness of sin in the wonderful realities of God's grace in him dying for us. But that should give us a perspective of, I want to root out sin in my life and help brothers and sisters to root out sin. Sorry, that was my computer because of the gospel. And I think we should just take it. We should take it seriously, like Jesus does. Yeah, but if you are struggling with sin, I think, as Brad said at the beginning, the goal and the hope is not for you to just change your behavior, but to look to Jesus. That is where hope is found. That is where power to put sin to death is found, in the finished work of Jesus. And so let's turn our eyes to him in our repentance and figure out [00:53:04] Speaker C: how we do that in our own lives. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah, do it in community. [00:53:09] Speaker C: Yeah, do it in community, man. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Don't. Don't do it alone. Like, that's. [00:53:12] Speaker A: I mean, I just. In all honesty, there's so often where I do not know what it looks like to repent of something. [00:53:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:18] Speaker A: I have to humble myself before the Lord. Lord, please help me. Or just. Just open book here. I get visions and thoughts that come into my head that are despicable. And they're. They're. I know they're tied to my previous life of sin before I was a Christian in sexual immorality and all the things that I walked in, I still struggle with those things popping into my head. And there's temptations in that. And there's still a part of my heart that goes after that. And in the moment, I'm like, God, why? Why is this happening? I know there's sin in my heart, but I also know that there's spiritual attack. And oftentimes it's messy. And I don't know how to parse it all out. But when I'm in that place, I used to just navel, gaze and like, God, how do I figure this out? And I still struggle with that. But that's where I'm saying, and this, maybe this is a lot of this is just Coming from experience as well, I know I'm on the right track. When the Lord is humbling me and making me come before him in prayer and saying, God, please help me, help me to believe and grab hold of the finished work of Jesus, I know I'm on the right track. If that's where my heart disposition is going. If I'm not going there, I'm on the wrong track. [00:54:26] Speaker C: Is that usually the. I wish you'd have brought this up sooner. Is that usually the. The like. What is it called? The timeline of that? Is there. Do you, like, tell Jessica at any point or do you, like, tell someone else or. [00:54:39] Speaker A: I mean. Yeah, sometimes. It just depends. Yeah, I mean, I would say that because it's not a. It's not like a regular ongoing thing. [00:54:48] Speaker B: No. [00:54:48] Speaker A: It feels like it comes in like waves where I'm like, why is this thought in my head? [00:54:52] Speaker C: Or something. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Something random will just pop up as it does. [00:54:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:55] Speaker A: And so I think where the struggle is is more of just how I respond to that, which naturally I tend to turn inward and be like, you know, what's wrong with me? Right versus, again, I think what Brad said at the very beginning of the suggestion is very, very helpful. [00:55:11] Speaker C: Yes, It's. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Am I looking at myself 10 times and then trying to bring Jesus into it, like, on the side? Or is the filthiness that I still feel in my heart when that thought comes into my head and there's something in my heart that wants to grab hold of it, that's sin, not the thought coming into my head, because that can just be spiritual attack and all of those things. But that thing in my heart that I can feel and know it's there, if that leads me to just look at myself and say, I'm such a sinner and messed up and blah, blah, blah, and I'm just like navel gazing, which is how I usually want to respond. I know I'm on the wrong track. And I think just 16 years into it now, as a Christian, just knowing that, I wish I would have known that a decade ago because it does lead me to a place of God. I don't know what to do. I don't know the right answer, but help me to humble myself before you and cry out to you for help, and he's faithful to answer. And again, I can look back over the last 10 years, and those things, even though they still happen, they're not as internally devastating for me because I'm looking to Jesus more clearly when that comes up. But it's still A struggle. [00:56:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. That was good. Thanks for sharing, man. Yeah, we have, you know, we could move on. We have another question we can do, but we probably only have about 10 minutes or so, I would say, roughly, for listener attention. So do you guys want to just kick that question to the next one? What do you guys think? [00:56:41] Speaker B: I think we should. [00:56:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:42] Speaker B: I think we should just. Do you. I mean, I was just thinking as we were, like, halfway through this conversation, I was like, I think this is the episode. [00:56:49] Speaker C: I think the episode is. [00:56:50] Speaker B: I think so, too, is repentance and maybe some, like. I don't know. Sky, you direct us how you want us to go, man. My thought is like, no, I think could we get even more practical than what we've done in terms of just, like, spend 10 minutes on next. [00:57:04] Speaker C: Next steps for people if you want to do that. Totally into it. So far, I feel pretty good about the balance of real world and theology. I don't know how to explain that differently. That doesn't sound great, does it? But. [00:57:19] Speaker A: But. But I have a. There's another specific question that this listener had at the end of his comments that maybe it'd be helpful. [00:57:30] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Okay, good. Yeah. Lay it on us, dude. Yeah. So apologies to the next questioner. We will get it to the next time. [00:57:36] Speaker B: Next time. [00:57:36] Speaker A: But yeah. [00:57:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:39] Speaker A: Okay. So he's. He's kind of wrestling with. I know salvation's by grace through Christ alone, but I also know we need to repent. But I'm like, how do those things work together? And not. You get confused. That works. Are part of your salvation and all that kind of stuff. But then he says, but how do we appropriately hold both our act of repentance and God's sovereign grace in the same hand? Because clearly repentance is something that we do, I guess is where that's coming from. How do we hold both our act of repentance and God's sovereign grace in the same hand? [00:58:15] Speaker C: Do you think maybe he's asking, how do we hold the fact that Jesus died and repented of all of our sins? But we also hold the fact that we do need to actively repent together? Because those contradict somewhat. [00:58:25] Speaker B: I. I hear it as contradict. [00:58:27] Speaker A: What do you mean? [00:58:29] Speaker B: Well, you're saying. I. I hear what you're saying, Sky. You're like, if Jesus died for all of our sins, right? If he paid for all of our sins, right. How do we reconcile that with the call to keep repenting? [00:58:41] Speaker C: Boom. There it is. [00:58:42] Speaker B: Okay. All right. [00:58:43] Speaker C: So you're awesome. Thank you. So much. [00:58:44] Speaker B: No. [00:58:45] Speaker C: Is that better? Sean, you understand that I hear that. [00:58:47] Speaker B: That's not what I heard. That's not what I heard from the question, though. What I hear, what I hear from the question is I could be wrong. We'll find out on Sunday when we ask this individual. You're probably right. I think what I, what I hear, heard from the question is, okay, if God is totally in control of everything, right. Like he's sovereign, he's in control of everything. [00:59:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:05] Speaker B: In a similar way we think about evangelism, why do it if God's going to save who he's going to save? Why evangelize if God's totally in control of everything? Which would include what you're saying, Sky, Jesus has paid the full penalty for our sin. [00:59:18] Speaker C: Right. [00:59:19] Speaker B: You're righteous in the sight of God, why keep doing it? Is what I hear. Is that what you hear? [00:59:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Okay. God's sovereignty doesn't. God's sovereignty doesn't. His sovereignty doesn't negate our human responsibility to obey. Is like high level, 30,000 foot reality that the Bible always has the sovereignty of God, which is total and complete, not diminished in any way, and human responsibility running in parallel lines like there's never. You don't see a diminishing of that. Right. So yes, God is totally in control. Jesus has totally paid the penalty for your sins. You can breathe today. You don't have to worry about, has this sin taken me outside of the fold of God. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And that all the more is a reason to continue to put it to death by the Spirit. I mean, like he's paid the penalty. You're free. You're a son and daughter of God. If you're in Christ, like Sean was saying, I mean, you have union with God. I mean, there's nothing better in the world than that, than having union with God and being cleansed of our sin. And so man, let's put it to death by the spirit together. [01:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And the utter sovereignty and faithfulness of God gives us the confidence to know that regardless of how much we struggle now, regardless of how much sin at times seems to get a hold on us, we know because we are in Christ that our eternal destiny and our ultimate victory over sin is sure because of God's sovereignty. But yeah, it's just. And I understand the struggle because they are seemingly two parallel truths. I think this is how JI Packer put it, like you were saying, two parallel truths of our responsibility and God's sovereignty that we don't quite see how they're bridged perfectly. But we know that there are two parallel truths that aren't contradictory. Even though we don't see how they're bridged, God and his Word does not seem to hold them in tension. God is utterly sovereign, and that does not diminish our responsibility. [01:01:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So to answer his question, it is a little bit confusing and almost incomprehensible on purpose. Yeah, right. [01:01:44] Speaker B: Yeah. We won't be able to fully comprehend it for sure, but I do think maybe just it does come down to, again, a matter of love. Right. Like David when he sinned with Bathsheba. And if you don't know the story, 2 Samuel 11:12 is the story of David and Bathsheba in the Old Testament. His response when he was confronted with that sin by his prophet Nathan is in Psalm 51. So he writes Psalm 51 in response to that sin. And it's a psalm of repentance. It's a great blueprint of what true repentance looks like in Psalm 51. And he knows God is sovereign. He knows he's in control. He knows God is merciful and forgiving. And he actually, when he begins his repentance in that psalm, he prays on the basis of God's character, almost as if to say, God, I know that you're forgiving. I know that you're merciful. I know all these things. And so I'm pleading with you on the basis of your character that you forgive me of this sin and that you change my heart, that I don't go back to it kind of a thing. He didn't seem. He knew God was sovereign, but it didn't stop him from repenting on his face in sackcloth and ashes because he loved God. [01:03:01] Speaker C: Just to be clear, he committed adultery. I don't know if anyone knows he committed adultery. [01:03:05] Speaker B: And then he murdered the husband of the woman who he committed adultery with. Terrible. He loved God, man. He, like so loved him so much that he said, against you and you alone have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight. He sinned against a lot of people in that. But his greatest concern was, I've sinned against the one that I love the most. And so that. That for us as Christians, man, that. That's the driver. The. The knowing, the theology of sovereignty and responsibility is. Is good and necessary. And that that theology ought to lead us to just. I love him, you know, like, I want to follow him. I want. I want to trust him more than I do and allowing that love for God to lead us to repent. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah, and just again, the kind of. The tension in Deuteronomy in multiple places. But Deuteronomy, I think seven specifically talks about God being a God who keeps his covenant and steadfast love towards his people. But he says, with those who love me and keep my commandments, it's God who's initiating. We see this at the beginning of the Ten Commandments. It's God who brought them out of Egypt. It's God in his grace that is establishing a people for himself, and then he gives the commandments. It's this love of God and God's love for us. I feel like oftentimes we pit them against each other, when in reality they're. They're. They're two truths that go together. But it's always initiating. God's always the one initiating it. He's all. He's the one calling his people to himself. He's the one giving us His Holy Spirit. And that in no way diminishes us as responsible people who make genuine decisions. Yeah, but that, that keeping that tension in our minds is helpful because it keeps us from going into errors. For example, it keeps us from going to a place where we feel like it's all on us and we have to make the right decision or somehow our plan is going to be off for life. You know, for example, like with God's will, if I make this wrong decision, I'm going to be out of God's will. Well, if we have appropriate perspective of God's sovereignty and God's over all things, we have a lot more peace in our decision making. And it's the same thing with repentance. Yes, we are to repent. We're called to repent, but we're repenting to a God who is utterly faithful and sovereign and who has a plan for us and who is working out our sanctification and will complete, making us holy to look just like Jesus when we die or when Jesus returns. Like that finished product, if you will. That finished reality, better way to put it, is a certainty because of God's sovereignty. [01:05:47] Speaker C: You could almost call it Redemption Hill. I'm just kidding. All right, guys, that is the podcast. We love y', all, and we will talk to you guys later.