Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the RHC Podcast, a podcast that's meant to provide the people of Redemption Hill and those outside the church a resource that cultivates love for Jesus and love for others.
Welcome back to the RHC Podcast.
Today I'm your host, Taylor Locke, joined with Pastor Brad Holcomb. Pastor Brad, how are you?
[00:00:36] Speaker B: I'm excellent.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Excellent. Hey, we're excited to be here. We are going to be talking about friendship, loneliness, community, change, all of those things. But before we do that, as we do with the past three podcasts, we're gonna start out with a good old icebreaker question. So usually with these, I spring them on Brad and Sean in the moment, but Brad's had a little time to prepare and think through this because it's kind of a complicated question.
So here it is. Here's the scenario, folks.
Revival has broken out in Hollywood. Okay? Every A list actor in Los Angeles, California is now a born again Christian. They have called Pastor Brad and said, brad, we want to plant a church. Help us. We need your advice and counsel. It is Brad's job to now put all of these A list actors into a church planning core team. So Brad has experience with this. He's assembled a core team before and now he gets to do it with Hollywood's brightest and finest and born again Bible believing Christians.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: You know, nobody can see my expression right now, but it's a stressful question.
So though I've had time to think about it, man, I don't know that I have a great answer to that question. I'm gonna do the best I can. Ok? Would not trade any of the people of Redemption Hill nor our core team for any of these people in Hollywood.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: For anybody in Hollywood.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: For anybody. So why don't. What if we do this? Okay. What if I kind of audible the question a little bit? What if we do like a give and take where you give a particular position within a church and I'll give you an actor.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Oh, that's great.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: And then I'll do the same for you. We'll assemble the core team together as lead and associate pastor.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: As lead and associate. Okay, we can do this.
Let's start out with your lead guy, your lead pastor of preaching, teaching and vision.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Okay. I think you and I both agree on this.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: We do.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: The obvious answer to that is Denzel Washington.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Denzel Washington.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: I mean, like, first of all, vision caster.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: I mean, just that voice, like his presence. He's. He's like, he's already considered a wise elder among the Hollywood elite. Like Everyone.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Like when he talked Will Smith down.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: After Chris Rock, he said. He was like. I don't even know what he said.
He's like, don't let. He's like. He's like, the devil will tempt you at your highest moment or something like that. And everyone was like.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Like a speech. I don't remember the Titans.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
So Denzel, lead pastor.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: All right. Okay, now let me. Let me ask you.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Youth pastor.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Youth pastor. I thought about this one, and Steve Carell, I think, would make an excellent youth pastor. I think that he's engaging, would make the kids laugh with his, you know, like, he could do these crazy voices and.
Yeah, solid choice, I think. Steve Carell.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah, solid choice.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Okay. Okay, here's one. I haven't given you this one yet. Who would be. Who'd be your head of security?
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, man. Head of security, Man. I. There. There are a list of names that come to mind that all feel just utterly ridiculous.
I'm going to say the least. Ridiculous. Let's do. He's a little bit old and outdated, but I. He could. He could wreck some shop as a security guy. Sal Stallone. Sly Stallone. Not Sal. Sly Stallone.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: Sylvester Stallone.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Sylvester Stallone. Oh, that's a good choice as a head of security.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Rocky.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Vin Diesel came to mind.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: You know, get out.
Yeah, I thought about Jason Statham.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the bald.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Is he English? Australian?
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: He's like, hey, what are you doing here?
[00:05:00] Speaker B: You know who came to mind? Who at first was Dog the Bounty Hunter?
[00:05:04] Speaker A: That guy with the long face.
He's like, yeah, you're on a list. We can't have you in here.
Okay, Head of security. Who else you got?
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Let's do.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Do one more.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Two more. Two more roles. Kids and music. Okay, so kids, kids, director for us.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Kids director.
I think.
I think Anne Hathaway would be a good kids director. Okay. I don't know. She was in Princess Diaries.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: And other things. I don't know what else she's been in.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: But I don't know. I feel like she'd probably be good with kids.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
Okay. All right.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Well, I don't know.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: I was thinking Meryl Streep.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Meryl Streep.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Get some age in there. Like a grandmotherly figure for the kids. Wise.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Music, Music.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: See, this is tough because we're dealing with actors, like, not, like, true.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: We're not like musicians here.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Okay. All right, so revival.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Who? Revivals only hit the actor part.
I don't know. Like, who could. Who's a good. Who's like, a good actor or actress who could sing really well?
Maybe like.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Hugh Jackman can sing.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: I was going to say him. Hugh Jackman.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah, he's a.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: He was in that musical a few years ago.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: The Greatest Showman.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: The Greatest Showman.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Great soundtrack.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: He can sing.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we're just gonna go with him. We're gonna pretend that no famous musician has gotten saved in this scenario but Hugh Jackman, because he's an A list celebrity, A list actor.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: One other person we have to include, just because Brad's a Texas fan and loves him, is Matthew McConaughey.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah, you gotta.
He's a college pastor.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: College pastor, yeah. Or somebody could get up there and be like, hey, come on, guys.
Hey, your leaders, right? You need to raise up your leaders.
Wise elders.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: That's a solid team.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Okay. All right. We got a church plan here in Hollywood, California. Okay, that was kind of ridiculous. But it is a blessing, though, when you think about the topic of friendship. Right?
And friendship, when you look at it from a Christian perspective, especially in the New Testament, it is kind of at the heart of the gospel, isn't it?
What do we mean by that, Brad, when we say that, like, friendship is something that lies right at the heart of Jesus?
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really good, man. I. I mean, this is really helpful and encouraging for me because honestly, and we. We talked about this a little bit before we started recording Taylor, that this conversation of friendship and being known as. We'll get into a little bit more in a few minutes is, like, deeply personal because it's so hard. It's just, like, really challenging to know how. Not to know how, but to actually put into practice being known by other people. We can talk about that all day with our relationship with Jesus. But even that, for me, friendship with God is. Is still a relatively new concept that I think early on in my walk with Jesus, I did not think about Jesus as a friend.
So to answer your question, man, and I would love to hear your thoughts as well. I would say to even go one step further back from the gospel, I would say friendship is intrinsic in regards to who God is, the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. We talk about this a lot at Redemption Hill. God exists eternally in community.
And so John 17:24, Jesus says, Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Which is an amazing concept to think about the Father loving the Son and the Son loving the Father in the Spirit before the foundation of the world. So before we even get to the gospel, we've got this like just ontological reality of who God is and friendship existing within his nature. And I think that that just flows out into the gospel, that God through Jesus grafts us into this wonderful relationship between the Father and the Son and the Spirit by which we get to partake in that friendship now with God, which is what we were created for and we're brought into a family which is the church.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you take that into even the way that Jesus sees his disciples at the night of his betrayal when he says, I no longer call you servants because a servant doesn't know his master's business. Instead I've called you friends. For everything that I've learned from my Father, I've made known to you.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: It's amazing.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: And so there's a knowingness to friendship. Right. When Jesus says, like I call you friends, he's saying, I've revealed the very heart of God to you and I want to bring you into that fellowship.
It's an incredible reality.
So when you think about Brad, like, just talk about like healthy friendships. How do we cultivate healthy and deep friendships, particularly in the local church in the body of Christ?
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question, man.
I think to some extent, probably to a large extent, we're all trying to figure that out.
So C.S. lewis wrote a really helpful book that maybe some of you have read, but it's called the Four Loves. And he's got a lot of really good quotes, but one of them is he talks about, about how friendship is one of those things in life that's not necessary, but it brings color to life in the sense of like, you know, it's not a necessity, like food. Right. Like we don't need it to survive, but it does bring vibrancy and joy to life.
And so in that regard, like, it is necessary that we kind of try to pursue understanding and figuring out what it looks like to actually have friends with one another. So what was your question, man? Your question was how, like, how do you develop these friendships?
[00:11:42] Speaker A: How do you cultivate deep friendships within the local church, within a gospel community?
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Would you share with us how you do it or how you have done it?
[00:11:55] Speaker A: It's a, it's a five point plan, man. I, I really enjoy people and I enjoy getting to know them, what their likes are, what their dislikes are.
I think that Lewis says that most Friendships begin with this kind of aha moment. Like, what you too? You are interested in this particular thing?
I really, man.
I think a lot of friendships that I've made and cultivated have come from a place of just taking time with somebody.
If there's somebody that I feel like the Lord has put on my heart of, like, I really want to get to know that person, I try and get to know them from a place of let me just hear their story. Let me just hear about who they are, what makes them tick, and then share a little bit about myself, kind of in between the gaps of what they're saying, but a lot of it just for me. A staple text is Philippians 2, when Paul talks about counting others as more significant than yourself, which is a mark of humility. But I think it's also a great practical verse for friendship as well, because in friendship, you're developing a relationship with somebody by hearing them out, getting to know them.
And again, it is mysterious in a lot of ways, too, because it just. Sometimes it just happens.
And with all friendships, they can sprout organically or inorganically, but usually it begins with some sort of commonality, like common interest. Common interest.
Or you occupy a particular space. Like, if you go to summer camp with, you know, people, you wouldn't. But then by the end of it, you're all best friends because you were forced to be there all summer.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. For sure. That makes sense. That's really. That's really good.
Yeah, man. I was thinking earlier today, in preparation for this, about David and Jonathan just have a fascinating relationship with one another to me, that, like, when you read it, I mean, at least, like, when I go back and read it, there's a part of it that almost feels uncomfortable, right? Like, so this is what it says. 1st Samuel 18:1. As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David. And Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
And you're like, dude, that's a. That's a deep level of friendship, that. It's like the way the Bible talks about David and Jonathan. It's almost like not. Not like they were closer to one another than a married couple would be.
But there are certain parts of it that kind of read that way that.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: You know, where it sounds like this mingling of souls of what you would take into a marriage relationship.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Yeah. So, I mean, I read. I read something like that, and then I think, man, I want that.
I want to. I want to be so confident in my identity, which which, where. Where I would say, you know, in answering to the question, Taylor, I think for me personally, what has been the journey along the way of developing actual friends, not just, you know, people I do ministry with or, you know, even. Even within, you know, my own marriage with Sidney like is, is having to really reckon with the reality that for most of my Christian life, I just have not been incredibly confident in who I am in my identity, comfortable in my own skin, believing with all of my heart that I'm fully accepted by God in Jesus, that nothing I do could ever discern that acceptance. I'm fully known, fully accepted, and because of that, I'm free to just be Brad. I don't have to hide behind the veil of whatever this perception is. I'm tempted to put forward with people, which is very exhausting. It's an exhausting way to try to do relationships. And I'm totally guilty of it, man. It's still a challenge for me, but. But I think I would only add to what you're saying in just maybe posing the question to those who are listening is, who do you believe you are most foundationally?
Because I think how you answer that question will determine whether or not you're going to be willing and able to take the risk necessary to be known by people.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And it is inherently risky to develop a deep friendship with somebody because you're, in a lot of ways, showing them who you really are and whether that involves your past struggles or even your current struggles and them being willing to walk with you and stay with you in that.
Matt Chandler has one of my favorite quotes on love where he says, true love says, I've seen the ugly parts of you and I'm staying. Oh, yeah, that's friendship. Yeah, that's friendship to me.
I've seen and heard the.
I know you in such a way that I'm going to stay with you and be your friend and maybe challenge you and call you to. And that doesn't mean that, you know, you don't tell people some things they don't want to hear. In fact, you can testify to this, Brad, like your closest friends and my closest friends, like, call me on, hey, like, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't. I don't think. I don't think you're. You're walking in the right way or living in the proper way.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Well, that takes an enormous amount of trust to do that. And so I feel like, you know, that. That in and of itself, confrontation is very difficult for me and you know, it's even harder when I don't trust the person.
You know, I don't know what they're going to do with which. Which is no reason not to confront, by the way. Okay, so we confront in love because it's the right thing to do for that person, right? Not confronting for ourself, but for the sake of that person if they're walking in sin. But I do think that this relational equity, you know, it. The relational equity required to confront more confidently comes back to trust. Do you trust this person? Yeah.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: That's really good. So that's kind of like a positive vision, right, for gospel friendships. But we know that, like, not all of us find ourselves in that place of knowing someone fully as a friend or trusting someone fully.
Maybe, maybe there's even scenarios or situations where you had. You felt like you had those friends around you, but due to certain circumstances, they moved or left or were called elsewhere.
And so there is.
I think even the.
The government has come out and said that there's this loneliness epidemic, that there's an epidemic of loneliness in the culture. And, you know, maybe it's not that as extreme as it is, but it's something that many people experience, and it's a real reality, especially for the times that we're living in. Um, so do you think, Pastor Brad, like, like with this idea of loneliness, how. How is someone to. To reckon with that in their own lives if they're in a place where they. They're not, let's say, experiencing the joy and the freedom of being known in friendships within the context of the church? How do you go about battling that loneliness, man?
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Good question.
I think.
Well, I think first of all, you need to recognize that it's a reality that you're experiencing.
Don't deny it, don't villainize it. Don't assume that you shouldn't feel that way. Just acknowledge honestly that you do. You do feel lonely, and you feel like you don't have close friends and maybe you don't. And so, you know, just, I think, acknowledging that. And then as we talk about with lament, you know, lament is a prayer of pain that leads to trust is what we've said. That's a quote from Rogop.
So if lament is a prayer of pain that leads to trust. Feeling lonely certainly is something to lament about. And so it's painful, it's.
It's depressing. It's, you know, all sorts of difficult things. Just bringing those to the father and recognize and remember that he cares he cares that you feel lonely.
And so I think that that's like step one for sure is acknowledge it, recognize it, don't villainize it. Don't pretend like it's not there. Bring it to the Father in prayer.
Allow the spirit of God to minister to your heart in that place and to remind you again of your identity in Jesus. Because I think the more that we grow in our awareness of that identity that you're a beloved son or daughter of God in Christ, that you're not condem. Fully loved and fully accepted by the Father. This is who you are. You're not your job, you're not your marital status or your child rearing stat, whatever that is foundationally who you are. The more we acknowledge that, the more free we're going to begin to feel to enter into the context of community. So at Redemption Hill, that's a variety of ways, but enter into the context of community with enough confidence, even if it's small, to.
To be able to articulate that loneliness to the people around us even, you know, I mean, maybe that's, I don't know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe that's step one of, of what this might look like in community, in being known, is just acknowledging, like. And guys, I've felt really lonely lately just letting other people in on that.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And even like taking a step to.
And ask the Lord to search your heart. Ask the Lord to reveal at least one person.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: With within the church body. Like, gosh, is God? Is there somebody here in this place that I can go to and express these things towards and confide in a little bit? And you know, maybe, maybe, maybe it's you going to multiple different people, but just not allowing yourself to, you know, wallow and stay in that place of loneliness.
But like you said, lamenting before the Lord, asking him to search your heart and then, and then being courageous and going to somebody. A lot of this takes courage.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Oh, and courage and faith.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Like, so I think when Paul talks about the righteous shall live by faith. We've talked about this before. I don't think he's merely talking about salvific faith in what Christ did on the cross, though, it certainly is not less than that. Yes. Faith in all of life. It does require faith and courage. You're right, man. To go into community and say, hey, guys, or person, whatever. You know, I really feel lonely. I mean, I think there's something that, that feels harder to do. And I, I admit this personally. Like, that feels harder to do sometimes than going and confessing other certain sins. Right. It seems like people, by and large have a harder time saying something like that. Like, I feel lonely. I feel like I don't have friends than they do. Going into a context and saying, I struggle with pornography. Yeah. Or. Or whatever.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: But there's. There's something about even naming it and saying, I feel lonely. I feel lonely about this in the context of another person, another Christian that hopefully cares about you and wants the best for you.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: And they might be feeling it too.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: That they might be feeling that too.
And suddenly you can say, okay, let's come together over this. Let's pray with one another. Let's go before the Lord together and that kind of thing.
What we're really after is to create a gospel culture. Right.
Meaning a place where, designing space, that we can be honest with who we are, honest with where we are, and have other honest Christians that are also stumbling along with you, say, hey, I. I'm there too. Or I've been there. Let me. Let me help you. Let me show you the way out.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's so good, man.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: So, yeah, really helpful stuff.
What would you say, Pastor Brad, about just this idea of.
This idea of navigating change and perhaps even embracing new community?
If, you know, I've had. I've had several really close friendships in my personal life where the person moved away for X reasons, and it was super hard, and it was like, gosh, I'll never. I'll never have. I remember thinking, like, I'll never. I'll never know someone like that again. You know, like, I'll never have a friend like that.
And the Lord just, over time, just continues to provide and put men and women in my life that are here, you know, for a season. But then. But then also there's this transition. So I guess the question is, is just like, when. When change does come in your life, in your friendships, how do we recognize that and then embrace community even when.
When those friends move away or we're starting to battle that loneliness again?
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question, too. I mean, I think, you know, I as well, Sydney and I have had some of our dearest friends move and we've moved and, you know, so it's painful. You just can't get around the pain of it. And I think we don't like pain. None of us do.
And so, again, there's just a recognition of change oftentimes involves a level of pain.
But change is also a part of life.
Jesus never changes. And so, again, not as a. That reality has to become more than just a theory to us. Like, we have to pray that the Spirit helps us functionally believe that that's true. Jesus does not change. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so because of that, we can embrace the reality that in life we're going to experience change all the time. Change to our bodies, change to our homes, our city, our friendships, you know, these really, really close friendships that you're talking about. Taylor, man, and I'm. I'm certainly. I feel like I, I could grow so much in this area of my life of, of continuing to prioritize close friendships with people that I am not in close proximity with, like we. That the intimacy that we experience in those friendships doesn't have to go away. It shouldn't go away. It's good. It just takes prioritizing, and that's. That's hard when somebody's not right in front of your face next door in your community group, whatever. But, but it's worth it. It's worth prioritizing that phone call. When you randomly think about that person in the middle of the day, just picking up the ph, give them a call, talking for 20 minutes. It's worth putting something on the calendar, like, hey, once a month or once every other month, we're going to set up a phone call or zoom call, and we're going to do this or, you know, whatever. I think there are all sorts of ways that we can keep those friendships going that shows that, you know, they're a priority for us. And also, like you said, this would be the last thing I'll say, like, not disregarding the future friendships that we could develop with people, with new people, too.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think that the older I've gotten the you, you, the more kind of curmudgeony you get where you're like, I've got enough friends I don't need. You know, I, I've had that thought before of just, I don't need any. Any more friends.
But. And, and yet I feel the Lord continuing to call me into not necessarily having a whole bunch of friends, but continually calling me to pursue and develop deep relationships with those whom he's placed in proximity in my life, because not only will it benefit me, but it'll benefit them. And he's. He's calling me into more of himself in those friendships. He wants me to aid and assist in helping them look more like the person of Jesus. And so I think if that's where our minds are, then, yeah, man, you could have. There's people, man, that have the capacity to have 50 close friendships, and there's some people that have a capacity to have three or two, you know, like, wherever you are, kind of on that spectrum.
I think it's important to know that Jesus wants more of you.
And sometimes that looks like cultivating and developing another friendship with somebody.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's the Bonhoeffer quote. He said, anyone who loves their dream of community will destroy community, but whoever loves will create community. Yeah. So, like, if. Yeah. At the end of the day, I think one of the most practical things that we can hopefully take to heart is the call to be a good friend. Like, because we think a lot about how can we get good friends. Like, how do we get these things? And that's not bad. It's certainly normal. And it's a good desire to have to almost be approached by somebody who wants to be your good friend. Yes. That's a. That's a normal good thing to want. It just can't take precedent over the call to love people.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Like, be a good friend. You know, go into community and man, be. Be the first to.
And you want to be careful and wise about this for sure. So I'm certainly not advocating going air out all of your dirty laundry in a context of people you don't trust or know. But like you said earlier, with one trusted friend to whatever, just be the first through the glass, so to speak.
And you know what? I'm going to seek, as Ray Ortland would say, I'm going to seek to be known tonight and not impressive. He said, you can either be known or impressive, but you can't be both.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: So convicting.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it is, man, because it's so easy to just want to live our life as being impressive. Yes. But again, it's very tiring way to live, and I think we have all the freedom in the world because of Jesus. To be known.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I think we should end on that note.
This has been the RHC podcast on friendship and loneliness. Stay tuned for next episode. We'll see you there. Peace.
