The Bible and Gender Identity

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, y'all. The first three episodes of the Redemption Hell Podcast are going to contain some heavier topic material. We wanted you to be aware of that, that not every podcast is going to be like this. But in light of the current season that we're in, the other elders and I felt like these were necessary conversations for us to have. So we hope it's helpful and hope you enjoy the. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Welcome to the RHC podcast. This is episode two, last time. For our first episode, we covered sexuality. Sexuality in the confines of marriage, sexual immorality. If you haven't given that episode a listen, please do so. Today we're going to be covering the topic of gender identity, transgenderism, and we also want to talk through a few scenarios that you may find yourself in as a Christian and how you can best glorify God and ethically respond according to your conscience in those scenarios. So exciting episode for us today, but wanted to start out as we do now. If you do it twice, they say it's a tradition. Pastor Brad. So with our icebreaker question, our icebreaker question for episode two is this. If you could have any special skill or talent that you don't currently possess now, what would it be and why, Man. [00:01:44] Speaker C: Wow. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Braden said, recording a podcast influencer. [00:01:50] Speaker C: No, just kidding. [00:01:51] Speaker A: What would you. What would you. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Sean, the social media influencer. [00:01:56] Speaker C: The joke is that's not necessarily a skill, but maybe it. It is a skill in some sense. Sorry. [00:02:01] Speaker B: I heard it takes a lot of work. I don't know. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Man. [00:02:06] Speaker C: That is hard on the spot. I would love to be able to sing, man. [00:02:10] Speaker A: I was thinking the same thing. I'm gonna have. I'm gonna choose something else. You go ahead. You run with that one. I'll think of something else. That's it. That's all I got. Why? Why would you do that one? [00:02:18] Speaker C: I mean, singing's fun. I didn't used to like singing until I became a Christian. Now I really enjoy singing, but I always feel bad for the people that are sitting next to me. Oh. Because the Allens are usually sitting either next to me or in front of me. And I'm often just like. I'm sorry. In my head, because they're beautiful voices. And then I'm not going to shy back. I mean, I'm singing. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah, you didn't shy back in the first episode. Confident in your gospel identity. [00:02:43] Speaker B: Under the sea. [00:02:43] Speaker C: But it would be great for everybody else if I could actually sing. [00:02:47] Speaker A: I've never heard you sing. I'm curious now. I'm going to sit by you on Sunday man, let me. Let me think for just a second. Try not to leave too much dead airspace here. One skill. The first thing that came to mind was a superpower, not a skill. [00:03:04] Speaker C: Let's go with it. [00:03:05] Speaker A: It was flying. Yeah. [00:03:06] Speaker C: I wish I could fly. [00:03:07] Speaker A: That's not really a skill. [00:03:08] Speaker B: I don't think anyone's going to be able to do that one. [00:03:10] Speaker C: I mean, they have, like, those wing things that you can put on and jump off. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Oh, the wing suits. The wing suits. [00:03:15] Speaker A: I'll be. I'll be responsible here. I. I would learn a trade. Some kind of a trade. [00:03:20] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, that's way too vague. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Okay, well, what trade? Plumber, Maybe woodworking mechanic? Like just something. Something with my hands. I did not grow up doing those things. I grew up playing sports and just didn't care to learn them. And now that I've got sons, you know, I'm like, man, I want to learn these things. So got a great father in law. I've got YouTube. I've got resources. But I would spend more time learning something like that. Useful with my hands. [00:03:51] Speaker B: We've got singing and a trade. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:54] Speaker B: I would want to learn the piano. The piano is the best instrument. Objectively, it's the best. [00:04:02] Speaker C: Thought he was about to go into a trump impression right there. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Objectively, the best. [00:04:08] Speaker A: But it's so easy to lure you into it. [00:04:15] Speaker B: I bet he plays. He could play piano, right? [00:04:18] Speaker A: He probably thinks he can. [00:04:19] Speaker C: No, he's the best in the world. [00:04:25] Speaker B: I think it's just. I think it's a beautiful. Like, anytime I hear Laney playing it. And all of our piano players. Braden can play piano. It's just. It's the best. I'd love to. [00:04:38] Speaker C: Piano. [00:04:39] Speaker B: Mozart all over. [00:04:40] Speaker A: It's very pretty. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Piano. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Yep. [00:04:43] Speaker B: So that's mine. [00:04:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:44] Speaker B: All right. Hey, let's. Let's jump in. [00:04:46] Speaker A: T. Will you really quick. I'm sorry. Will you give. Just a quick overview just in regards to. We talked about this pre show. Yeah. That, you know, these topics. These topics are very important, but. Yep, go ahead. [00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So the first few episodes and the topics that we're gonna be covering are more cultural, political topics. We want this podcast to equip the people of Redemption Hill Church for the work of ministry. And so a lot of these first few episodes are worldview episodes, but we also wanna equip you in topics of spiritual formation and topics of theology that we can't cover in equipped classes. All kinds of facets of the Christian life. So this is not primarily a cultural political podcast, but we do Believe that these are really important issues of our day, that these are things that are being talked about on a national and local and state level almost daily in the news. And so that's why we wanted to start there and within the church as well, and inside the church. And so we want to be proactive and not reactive when it comes to these kinds of issues. And we also desire to see you love and worship Jesus above all else and to do so equipped with the word of God. [00:06:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And the reason word dealing with these specific issues is they are heavily politicized, but foundationally, these are moral issues. [00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So with that Pastor Brad clarification. Thank you. Let's jump into our topic today, which is going to be primarily focused on gender identity, focused on the topic of transgenderism. Let's just begin there. Pastor Sean, how would you begin a conversation around this subject of gender identity? Where do you want to begin? [00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll do my best. I think the foundational thing that we need to discuss is that there are ideologies at play here. There's worldviews that are part of the discussion. And so biblically, what I mean by that is, from a biblical worldview, the human being is a unified being. The body, the mind, the spirit. These are not things that we can fundamentally separate. Sure, when we die, those who are in Christ, our spirit goes to heaven, but that is not how it was meant to be. We were created as whole beings. So our biology, our physical body, is very, very, very important. It was created by God with a purpose. And so the reason why that's so important is because there's worldviews now that are intending to separate that reality. And what I mean by that is that the biology, the flesh, the body, is separated from the person. You have your biology, the way that you were created, and then you have your mind or your psychology, what you think you are, how you feel. And those can be two separate realities because fundamentally, the worldview is separating the physical body from the person. Whereas we would say biblically, the person is a physical body and a mind. There's not. It's not like the body is more important than what's in the mind, but those things are. Those things are unified together. There's one being in the worldview that we're going to be kind of digging into some. And this even goes for other topics we'll discuss. For example, like the issue of life and abortion. Some of these things are foundationally based on a reality that separates the biological body from the person. And I hope that's helpful. Brad, do you want to clarify any of that? [00:09:24] Speaker A: I think it's great. I think the only thing I would add is to go back to why one of the reasons this is so important is, you know, yes, our spirits do depart from our bodies at death when we go to be with Christ, but that's not the ultimate destination. That's not where things are going to ultimately climactically end. It's a new heavens and a new earth with new resurrected bodies. Like God is not done with our bodies at death. And so I think that just further reiterates what you're saying, Sean, about the beauty and the importance and the necessity of adopting this biblical worldview where we are holistic beings, body, emotions, spirit. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's helpful. I think, too, when we consider this issue from a broad cultural perspective in the last 10, 15, 20 years. [00:10:28] Speaker C: Some. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Of this language and vocabulary, what wasn't even around wasn't even perhaps considered or on the radar. And so what's happening or what has happened is your sexual orientation, your gender identity, has become something, let's say, ontological, which ontology just means being so this. Who. Who you are from a sexual stand, from a sexual orientation, from a gender perspective, that becomes everything that. It becomes the way that you define yourself. It becomes the way that you look at the world. And so why. Why is it important for us to address an ideology that says you are who you are, sexually speaking, first and foremost? [00:11:36] Speaker C: Well, I think that just. I'm glad you. You put it that way because that, that hits on what I was trying to say earlier with. There is this separation of I feel this way. I think this is who I am. I have these desires. And you are able to separate that from your biology. And I think that if we have to understand that foundationally, otherwise we're just going to be like, well, clearly you're not what you say you are. That's just wrong. But if we understand where the ideology is, I think for me at least that leads to more compassion because they feel like in their minds, this is who I am. My biology does not dictate that. And what we're saying is that you're separating something that God never intended to be separated. And like we talked about in the last episode, that is going to lead to destruction, that's going to lead to harm. And so when we're talking about the biblical worldview of acknowledging that biology and who we think we are should line up, that is for the good of the individual we're talking to. And so we have to. I think it's helpful at least to understand those realities because when we're talking to somebody, when we're trying to engage in these conversations, we're not doing it just to say, well, that's just wrong. Obviously you're not what you say you are. But we're saying it from a position of we know that because that's going against how God created things to be. That's going to be for your harm. And I know that's a hard thing to take in because they don't feel like it's for their harm. They think being what they think they are in their mind is what is actually going to be for their good, but it's not. That's why we have to be grounded in what the Bible says is good and true. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying. And Pastor Rat, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. You talked a lot about your identity versus your biology. It seemed what's happened is there's been this breaking down of just a healthy view of your own body. Right. Like, so how, how, how does the conversation about the body enter into this conversation around gender and identity? [00:14:08] Speaker A: I mean, I think maybe by defining what a man is and what a woman is. And you know, so certainly we could go to the Bible, we could go to Genesis 1 and 2 and see that like we quoted from the last episode that God made them, made humans male and female. So we see from Genesis 1, this is before the fall, that the original good, beautiful creation of God is gender binary. And you know, we could go into all sorts of, you know, topics and issues following that. But I think that's, that's, I mean, it's just so crucial for us today in the midst of all of the cultural confusion and fluidity and subjectivity and chaos, for us to be compassionately, crystal clear on this issue, that according to the biblical worldview and according to biology, not just the biblical worldview, but biology, that gender is binary, that gender and sex are the same, male and gender is binary, male and female. So just want to, I'm going to briefly define what a man is and what a woman is. So a man is an adult male. Human. Okay, so an adult male. That seems very self explanatory and almost redundant. And the same would be true for a woman. A woman is an adult female human XX chromosomes with female reproductive, with a female reproductive system with the capability of having a baby. Not all women are able to give birth to babies naturally. But that doesn't discount the reality of one of the primary physiological differences between men and women. And so I think it's absolutely necessary in defining who we are holistically to even begin with our biology. [00:16:09] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think what I've heard on multiple occasions is that a lot of the right word to use, but gender dysphoria, distress related to somebody feeling like they're, you know, a man who feels like they're a woman. And I certainly wouldn't say that this is every circumstance, but I have. I've heard this several times that a lot of that has to do with just, like, social, cultural things that we tend to say are manly. Like, a guy who grows up and doesn't enjoy sports is somehow put on him that he's not manly. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:55] Speaker C: And I think that along with like, that's just one example of like, tons of examples of somebody not feeling like they fit into a culture of manliness. [00:17:07] Speaker B: Not feeling like they fit into masculine or feminine stereotypes. [00:17:12] Speaker C: Right. And not. Yeah. And it being something that is not necessarily like, it's liking sports. Sure. That's a good thing. Right. It's not bad. But it's not biblical manhood to love sports. I think there's components to sports that is particularly attractive to men, especially who are driven and generally more competitive. So I'm not saying there's not any reality of why men tend to be more drawn to the ultra competitiveness. But it's not a, oh, if I don't like sports, I'm not a man. But I think our culture can kind of historically push people into that direction, which, again, that's not every situation of gender distress. But I know that that's at least some of the circumstances. And it's not necessarily based on biblical manhood. It's based on some of the culture. And so the answer is not to, well, I guess I need to move towards being more of a woman. It's being more grounded in what biblical manhood actually is. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And just I'll be the last thing. Carl Truman brings this up in his book Strange New World, and I've found it to be really helpful. This is a very new conversation. It's not to say that gender dysphoria didn't exist, you know, in previous generations, but he gives the example that 50 years ago, if a male were to walk into a doctor's office and say, I believe that I am a woman, the next steps following that appointment would be, okay, let's. Let's deal with what's going on in your mind. There's Something off or something abnormal. There's an abnormality in your thinking, in your belief system and your feet, whatever. But the issue would be psychological. But now the problem, it's seen to be biological. If that same man goes into a doctor's office today and says, I feel like a woman, it's, what do we need to do to change your biology, to align with your mind? That's brand new. And so, you know, again, we. We as Christians, as followers of Jesus, of course, like, first and foremost, go to the Bible and allow the revealed word of God to. To drive how we view reality. That's absolutely necessary for us. But in God's common grace, he's given us biology as well, to be able to look objectively. Taylor, you gave this example, and I thought it was helpful. You want to give it about, you know, if you were to, you know, dig up somebody who died. [00:19:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just saying it's kind. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Of a morbid example. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't have any dead bodies buried anywhere, but if you can, over the course of human history, dig up somebody's bones from 500, a thousand years ago, you can have no idea what they believe, but we can tell if they were male or female based on the anatomical structure of their bones. And so, to your point, it is quite new for this ideology in our particular culture. And perhaps maybe we can dig into that a little bit into transgenderism ideology, going from gender identity, gender dysphoria, to transgenderism. What is transgenderism communicating and saying about the nature of a person? And why is that? Why is that not only wrong but destructive to society? And again, I think it's important to clarify here. We're talking about. Right now, we're talking about ideologies. Uh, and so we'll. We'll get into the people component of it a little bit later, but transgender ideology. [00:21:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I. And I'm certainly not an expert here by any stretch of the imagination. The first thing I think of, I think it was Rousseau. I could have the person wrong, but the reality of I think, therefore I am the reality. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Descartes. [00:21:24] Speaker C: Descartes. There you go. Thanks, brother. The. That kind of. And that was a couple hundred years ago. Right. So these realities are new from, like, a mainstream perspective. But the baseline ideology of, again, this movement from separating who we think we are, from what we objectively are is kind of. We're in the full fruit of that kind of thinking. And so I think transgenderism is in that vein of, I think this is who I am, therefore I must be this rather than Like Brad's point with Truman, rather than it being, I think this is who I am, but everything else biologically, scientifically, if you want to say, is telling me something different rather than us saying, and this is why this is such an important thing to talk about. Because this seems weird in our day, but it. I'm convinced 100 years from now, people are going to look back and be like, what was happening? The issue is not, maybe I should think about lining what I'm feeling in these desires up with what is objectively true. It's, I think, this that then becomes the objective truth, which is not an objective truth. It's a subjective truth. And I think we're talking about the ideologies. I think it's really important to continuously remember, like, we're talking about specific people who are in great distress and are genuinely struggling. And we have an ideology that's telling them, well, you really shouldn't be struggling. You should just embrace this thing that you're thinking that this is who you actually are. Therefore, Even if you're 10, 12 years old, embrace that reality and move towards that direction of conforming your biology to how you feel or think or what you desire. And it's so important that is going to lead to destruction. There's studies that have been done and that are ongoing showing some of the effects of people going through these dramatic physiologic changes and over time coming to realize how devastating that is to their body and to them mentally. And so I think the issue is having a foundational understanding of the connectedness between biology and the mind and just saying that, hey, if there's something that I'm thinking that doesn't line up, maybe what I'm thinking is incorrect. And then let's talk about that. Let's lovingly engage in that conversation and patiently navigate why that is. But the world is saying, no, don't do that. Just embrace what I think that's. That's what I am. And that's devastating. [00:24:20] Speaker A: It is devastating. And I mean to go even a step further than that, as tragic as that is, it is more tragic that this is happening to kids. And you know that kids now have the authority on the basis of these subjective feelings, little humans whose prefrontal cortex is not even fully developed somehow have this authority to decide physiologically who they are. And so it's a massive issue to be clear on. [00:24:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:53] Speaker B: And I think it's important to say, too, our burden for this is not primarily political. This goes beyond the realm of politics. We're talking about the essence and core of who we are. And so when we think about these things, it's not just a political issue. It goes a step further than that. [00:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not a political issue primarily. I think one of the burdens that I have is, I mean, I've only been a Christian for maybe 14, 15 years now, and there's been such dramatic change in the culture since then is it's becoming. The ideology is becoming such a mainstream given reality that it's just inevitable that it's going to impact the church. And we see that it is impacting the church. Even in generally pretty conservative, theologically conservative churches, there's a movement to, in some respects, embrace some of this ideology. And so that's the burden, is that we desire. And again, this podcast is first and foremost primarily for Redemption Hill Church. And our desire and burden is to see us grounded in God's truth for the protection of the body, because we're not immune to these ideologies. These are the things we breathe in every day. So we have to dialogue about them, and then in addition to that, to be able to be more grounded so that we can engage the culture. And what I mean by that is people in the culture in a loving way. And this is incredibly, incredibly difficult. I know people who are struggling with these things, and it is a difficult thing to even think about, how do we even engage in this situation? And maybe that's a helpful transition point. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah, so you talked about that. It's not just affecting the culture and those outside the church, but those inside the church. So maybe it would be helpful for us to. [00:27:05] Speaker C: And I just mean the church in general. I'm not necessarily referring to Redemption Hill. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, yeah. The people of Christ's body all over the world. But maybe it would be helpful for us to talk through a few hypothetical scenarios and just get on the ground a little bit and talk through, okay, morally, ethically, you know, Pastor, what do I do? Right. And so maybe let's start with the issue of transgender pronouns and whether that is something that a Christian should honor. If you're familiar in some Christian spaces, there is disagreement over this issue with fellow brothers and sisters who perhaps talk of pronoun hospitality on one side and others who would reject that idea. And so let's just talk through Pastor Brad with the issue of transgender pronouns. Should Christians seek to use pronouns, preferred pronouns of people out of respect and hospitality? Is it a hospitality issue? Is it something more than that? Something different, perhaps? [00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah. What a question. [00:28:36] Speaker C: Thanks for asking, Pastor Brad. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Let me just say this directly to the people of Redemption Hill who are listening or anybody else who's listening. Like, our desire in this is to be like Jesus who's full of grace and truth. And so we don't want to make light of this. We don't want to be jokey about this. Like, these are incredibly serious issues that involve real people made in the image of God. Many of us I know I have, have experienced, dear loved ones who have or are walking through these things, who have asked me about the pronoun thing or asked me if I would refer to them as a particular pronoun, like in a particular way. So, yeah, it's weighty. At the same time, we want to be crystal clear because we don't have a lot of time. We just want to do it with the heart of Jesus. So let me answer the question and then I want to read a text and give a short explanation and then, Sean, you can add whatever you want, man. So the answer is no. Is it right or wise to use a person's preferred pronouns? I do not believe that it is either right or wise to use preferred pronouns. First Corinthians 13, famous passage on love says this, says love is patient and kind. Love does not envy or boast. It is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way. It is not irritable or resentful. It does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. And I think we miss that. I think we lack understanding, we lack biblical understanding of what love means, of what it is. And so in our minds, and I get this, our tendency is to think that to actually love our neighbor who is walking through gender dysphoria, we must cater to what they're asking and, or even in some circumstances demanding that we refer to them as that may or may not be aligned with their biology, with their God given identity. And to not do that is not loving. That's not true. That's just not true. I mean, you can listen to testimony after testimony of folks, men and women, who have been rescued by God's grace, out of transgenderism or out of homosexuality, spirituality, living that lifestyle, who are grateful to God for the Christians that spoke truth with grace into their life, that did not skirt the issue, they didn't cater to the issue, but it was actually, it was more hospitable to, I mean, hospitality and in large part, and this is not exclusively what it is, but it's welcoming people into your home, it's welcoming the Stranger into your home. We should have all sorts of people in our home. Strangers, not Christians, non Christian neighbors who are living homosexual lifestyles, who are in the LGBTQ community. Like we should have wide open doors, as we've talked about at Redemption Hill. Low fences, big dinner tables for all sorts of people to come in and experience the love of Jesus through us. And that. That compassion and that love does not necessitate that we compromise what is biblically and biologically true about that person. Now, I think it's a different conversation to have in regards to how we go about having that conversation. We don't want to be rude about it, as we saw in the text. We want to be kind and humble, and we want to listen. We want to hear stories. We want to. There's often so much suffering from someone's past that plays into why they're walking through gender dysphoria in the first place. Statistically, we would see that. And so we want to be quick to listen and slow to speak. But I think that we can and should do that without compromising truth. I think we can lovingly look at somebody in the eye and say, I love you. I care about you. I will not use that preferred pronoun because that's not who you are. [00:32:38] Speaker B: That's helpful. That's helpful. Pastor Sean, what would you say? Perhaps there's people listening to this whole. Are raising this objection in their mind that if I do, if I follow the counsel that Pastor Brad is giving, I'm going to lose the relationship with this person. They're not going to want to talk to me. It's just going to be a complete non. Starter. Maybe they might be in a position at work, in their career where they could lose their job over it. [00:33:13] Speaker C: Those are. [00:33:14] Speaker B: Those are two a little bit separate questions, but maybe just take them in whatever order you want. [00:33:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, this is a. It's just such a difficult topic. I mean, I think we. We feel very clear about it, but I think we just want to acknowledge abundantly that this is incredibly difficult, especially on the ground. Like somebody that is walking through a loved one struggling with this and is requesting them to refer to them this way, and they feel the pressure of if I don't do this, they may never talk to me again. So I think it is. There's just a. There's a weightiness to it. I feel the weight right now, even discussing it, because I know the. On the ground, it feels very, very difficult. And so what was the first question? [00:34:07] Speaker B: The first question was, if I don't refer to them as, by their preferred pronoun, I will lose the relationship with them. [00:34:16] Speaker C: Right. And unfortunately, that does come up a lot. I mean, that is essentially what the culture is telling people to do. If you don't embrace these things about me, you hate me, you do not love me, essentially you have to affirm these things. And us being pushed into that corner of saying, we have to affirm something that is objectively false and that, like we've talked about, is not ultimately for their good. That's why we have to be grounded in what the word says is true, to have a robust biblical worldview so that we can stand firm on, no, I'm not going to do that because I love you, I don't hate you. I want you to thrive. Or, you know, I've heard people share stories about people saying, I'm going to hurt myself if you don't do this. Well, I don't want you to hurt yourself. Please don't. But you are how you were created. You have value and worth and dignity. We love you. We don't want you to hurt yourself. We don't want you to not be in relationship. I'm not saying I'm not going to do that because I don't want you in my life or I don't want you at our church, or I don't want you to engage with me at all. Like, no, I'm saying this because I love you and I disagree with the worldview and ideology that says, this is who you are. But me disagreeing with you is not a statement of how I feel about you. I love you. I want to be able to engage about these things. I acknowledge as well that this is how you feel. Like you feel that you are not a him, you are a they. And I acknowledge that. That you feel that way is a. That's, that's real. That is how you feel. But for me to have to say, this is who you are by affirming that, which is essentially what the ideology is saying, call me these things. And if you don't, you're. You're not affirming me, I can't do that because that's not, that's not truth. And then I do think this is important to discuss and I do want to just again, over, overemphasize this. Like, I know that there's people in our church that are going to disagree with this position. And our hope is to have dialogue, for this to be something that stimulates good and healthy conversation. And let's talk through this, because it is a difficult, weighty issue I do want to address specifically one of the things that consistently comes up about pronoun hospitality, the seemingly obvious thing is that we can't do this because it's a lie, which it is. But the. Just to address, one of the perspectives that I've heard from somebody who affirms pronoun hospitality is that words change over time, cultures change, and the usage of words change. And so we should be willing to be flexible. Even if we don't agree with the ontology of what that's saying or the being or what it's referring to. The use of that word can somehow mean something different than it did before. And we do see that, right? We were talking about this before. The example of the word gay 50 years ago meant something very different. Today, you can't use the word gay in the way that you used to 50, 75 years ago. Like you hear, like you said, CS Lewis used the word gay. And it just is weird, right? Because he's not. It's not what it means anymore. It's completely different meaning. But that's not what we're talking about with pronouns. Pronouns are the meaning. They're changing objective reality. It's not just the use of the word. What you're asking me to do is to say something that is objectively false, like they are tied to creation and biology and science. We can't just break that. And so it is a lie to say that, in my opinion. [00:38:09] Speaker A: I think you have to ask yourself the question, because I feel like much of the time, especially with followers of Jesus, this desire for pronoun hospitality is not coming out of a malicious heart, a desire to lie. It's like you said, Taylor, I want to keep the relationship. I want to continue to minister this person. All of those things need to be commended. That's good. We should want that. You should not want to cut off relationships in your life. We should be peacemakers as much as possible, by God's grace. But I think one of the questions has to be, at some point, let's say that Jesus saves that individual. Well, at what point do you start calling them by their biological pronoun or sex? If up to that point there's been this, okay, I'm going to call you whatever. If that doesn't align with their biology, at what point does that change? At some point, it's got to change. Maybe people have an answer for that. [00:39:10] Speaker C: Well, honestly, that's up for debate as well. There's a thought process that says that that doesn't necessarily have to change. It really should foundationally. But somebody can. Like we talked about last episode, there can be a reality where you are a. We'll just use this as an example. A gay Christian or a trans Christian. Not in that you're not acting on it, but it's again, so tied to identity that you can still keep that as a label. Your biggest label is now as a Christian in Christ. But because sexuality and these ideologies are so tied to identity, they can still be kind of like a subgroup, if you will. And we talked about this last time, but that is not biblical. You can struggle with these things still. You will. Just like we all struggle with sin, but we are in Christ now and that is our identity. There is no such thing as a gay Christian. There is somebody who struggles with same sex attraction and who is seeking to put it to death. The same thing goes for LGBTQ stuff. So, yeah, you would have to change the pronoun situation when that person comes to Christ. But I do believe there's still like, that's. Even. That part is up for debate in some churches. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's helpful. So just to go to part two of the question that I was asking earlier, I'll pitch a scenario for you. You work in an office corporate job and get an email from HR that Dan is now Dana and uses pronouns of they, them, and this is company policy that you must abide by and respect the pronouns of this individual. Dan, Christians that we know have been put in situations like this where they now have a dilemma. Right. Of, okay, what am I supposed to do in this situation as a Christian, hopefully you don't believe in this ideology. So just painting that example of I disagree that Dan is now Dana, et cetera, but also, if I don't do this, I could lose my job if I don't refer to the preferred pronouns of this person. What is your counsel for somebody in that situation? [00:42:01] Speaker C: Yeah, so I think that's coming. Like, somebody's going to face that situation, or maybe they already have. My first encouragement would be, man, this should lead us to pursue understanding what the Bible says. Like, if anything, this should. This should drive you to thirst, to understand theology more, to be grounded in what God's word says. So I think your first step is to just say, man, this is incredibly difficult. And I'm in this really difficult situation. Like, let's dig in. And so maybe you're not in that situation now. Dig in, because it might be coming. And so that would be my first Encouragement is let's dig into the word. Let's be grounded in a biblical worldview and let's do that in community. Let's have conversations, let's, let's talk about these scenarios. And so that would be my first encouragement. Second would be as we, as we get ourselves grounded in understanding a biblical worldview, at least having a baseline understanding of the ideologies that we're up against. The, the ultimate answer is that no, you, you cannot embrace that. And that's hard like that me just saying that. I'm sure people either just turned it off or they just clinched up. [00:43:23] Speaker A: Well, and to be, to be clear, you, you do not work for the church. No, you're speaking as someone who you are. [00:43:30] Speaker C: So yeah, in the marketplace. I'll give, I'll give an example. I'm not in this situation yet, but I do have some, and I don't own, I don't own my business anymore. I, I did up until recently and I, so I do work for, I'm still there. I work for corporate. And I don't foresee this becoming an issue in the short term, but there is somebody at our workplace that has this kind of situation. And fortunately they have not asked formally to be referred to this way, but everybody knows it and I don't. I refer to them as they are and it has not caused a problem. I'm still extremely respectful and, and very nice to them, but it's always in the back of my head, like now that I don't own the place, is this going to become an issue? And I need to be prepared for that because the issue is, again, we're talking about these really hard, hard, hard situations. But at the end of the day, we are talking as Christians, our fundamental allegiance is to Christ and our heart and desire is for people to come to know Christ. And if we believe that his truth is true, then we have to be willing to suffer for the sake of righteousness. And this does come down to a issue of righteousness. If we say, well, I don't want to lose my job, therefore I'm going to call somebody something that they are not, I'm going to lie and I'm going to in some sense give credence to their ideology, even if I know that I disagree with it, but I'm going along with this. You are giving a thumbs up to that ideology whether you want to or not. And because this is so foundational, it gets down to morality and what the Bible says is good and right and holy. We can't Embrace that. We can't give approval to that. Like I think Paul talks about that in Romans 1. We can't, we can't give approval to evil things. Not only can we not do them, we can't give approval to it. And so we have to be willing to suffer for the sake of Christ. And I might be in that situation, and I know other people that if they lose their job, they feel like they're not going to be. What are they going to do? That's hard. We're going to have to navigate that as a body, as a church and community. But we have to stand on what is good and true. And so I just will read these verses and then Brad, you can clarify. Correct me if anything I said was off. Jesus says, and church, we need to take this to heart. And real quick, before I read this, I think this is important. Brad, you brought this up earlier. I think off air that we haven't really had to face significant persecution as a country. Praise God for that. And so it seems out there, but this is not, this is not rare in the context of the entire church. And so we should embrace the reality of suffering for righteousness sake, and we should pray to God that we would rejoice in the midst of it as hard as it will be. So Jesus says in Matthew 5:10, he says, Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom heaven. This is so clearly an issue of being persecuted for righteousness sake. 2 Timothy 3, verse 12, Paul says, Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. And just to round this off, we're talking about standing firm on biblical truth, being willing to suffer for righteousness sake, counting it joy. We also, in the midst of that, want to do that in a way that is above and beyond gracious and kind and engaging. There's been a couple times where conversations have almost come up in regards to the situation I was talking about. And I pray that they will. The right context has to be there. I feel like just in my particular situation, but I want that to happen so that it'll open up an opportunity to have those conversations, hopefully outside of work. So I think we just need to be prepared to do that, but in a way that is not. No, I'm just not going to do that. I'm not going to do it. We need to do so in a way that is seeking to really love and take the opportunity that we can to care for these people or to engage them. And so Paul says in colossians chapter four. Last thing I'll say. He says, walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. So we know we shouldn't answer them in harshness. We should stand firm on the truth. Make sure our speech is seasoned with salt. [00:48:30] Speaker A: It's really good. I feel like we talk about this all the time at Redemption Hill. You know, by the grace of God, we need to all develop an eternal perspective on things. Think more deeply, more consistently about heaven. And, you know, if you. Sean, you mentioned this. If you look at the early church, whether it's in the Book of Acts, throughout the New Testament, through the letters, or just, you know, in the first, you know, 500 years of the church, and this was a reality of everyday life. There was an actual cost, a physical cost to following Jesus. Getting baptized meant something really significant. If you're getting baptized, you are declaring to the world that your allegiance is not to Caesar, it's to Jesus. This is still happening around the world with brothers and sisters who live in places that do not. They don't enjoy the amazing benefits that we do in the United States. And so you're right, man. Like, what a joy to live in a country where we can freely come together and have these conversations and not have to worry about, you know, authorities knocking at the door, ready to take us in. So that's a wonderful gift of God's grace. So, yeah, I think just, you know, we ask the question a lot of, what does Jesus mean to us? Jesus very clearly says, unless you love me more than you love anything else, anybody else, you cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And so I think ultimately this comes down to that. It's will we treasure Jesus in our time? Will we treasure him above everything, above our job, above our security, our family, our relationships, our safety, all of it. Will we see him as better? I'll quote one thing and then I'll be done. Rosaria Butterfield, in her book Five Lies of Our Anti Christian Age, says, there is a war raging between good and evil in our world. And though we might prefer the conflict to be fought somewhere else, we don't get to pick the times in which we live. The front lines today are battles over sex, gender and identity. We must be ready for a fight in precisely these places. Don't underestimate the power of your opponent. The devil wants us to join him in his rebellion against God. He wants to make us cowards and traitors. He Wants us to believe the myth of our own autonomy. He wants us to raise the white flag and side with the enemy. The enemy without or the enemy within. It doesn't matter to him. I think there's a lot of truth in that. John the Baptist was not beheaded because of his doctrinal commitment to Christology. It's a very important, necessary thing. He was beheaded because he called out sexual immorality. And so this really is where the rubber meets the road for us. And so I just agree with you. I think we need to be ready and we need to maintain an eternal perspective. In the end, it's all going to be okay. Jesus will return. He will make all things new. Yeah. [00:51:31] Speaker C: And just to reiterate, you don't have to process these things in isolation. Like, let's do this as a church. Let's have conversations. Let's be prepared. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, certainly. And I have one more question that I want to pose to you guys, but just along these same lines, just really quickly wondering if you could answer. Is there a difference in calling someone by their preferred pronoun versus their preferred name? And is that something that Christians could or should do? And if you don't want to answer this, we can cut it out in post. [00:52:17] Speaker A: You want me to start? You want to start? [00:52:18] Speaker C: No, I would love for you to start. [00:52:20] Speaker A: Okay, I will take a stab at it, and then you can clear up my missteps if they're there. Okay. Personally and man, I just honestly want to think more deeply about this. Personally, I do think that there is a difference between preferred pronouns and names. I will not do either. Okay. So if somebody asks and. Or demands me to call them by a specific name, I will not do that. I still think that there's a difference between preferred pronouns and names. I think, you know, back in the first century, before that, in Judaism, you've got significance. Meaning you can almost say, maybe ontologically behind a name. Like, a name in many ways spoke as to who the person was. That's not the case in our culture today, necessarily. When we're talking about gender and sex, we are talking about something ontologically true about a person. And so I think the difference lies there. But I personally would not. I would not do either. [00:53:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I think, like you said, it's just something we want to be thinking deeply about. I would not either. I've gone back and forth on this, but I think if we're thinking about what's happening when somebody is asking you that it is similarly to the pronouns wrapped up in an ideology that is, just to put it very bluntly, is demonic. It's not true. And so I think in this particular circumstance, names do carry a lot of weight. They're saying something about the individual. It's not like, hey, my name's Frank and I'm really just, I really don't like that name and I've legally changed it to Bob. But there's nothing ontologically just to go back to that changing in that individual, that would be weird. And I'd probably be like, dude, why'd you do that? But it's not saying something about that person's worldview, about who they are. Whereas this particular issue, we're talking about names that are tied to an ideology that we're trying to say that's not for your good. We understand that you believe that and that's what you want, but it's not good. And so we're not going to do that. And again, I haven't been in that situation where I've had to have that direct conversation. But again, we need to be prepared for that and we need to be able to express that with love. And so that's the way I feel right now. I feel like that I'm fairly convicted, that that's the case again, tied to the ideology. But it's a tough one. I agree. It's less abundantly clear than the pronoun issue in my mind. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah, tough indeed. Thank you all for answering that last scenario. And this one more goes into the realm outside of gender identity, but more into homosexuality, particularly so called gay marriage. How would you counsel a fellow believer who is invited to a friend's wedding who is gay? Would you counsel them to attend that wedding again, out of hospitality, out of friendship, or would it be not to attend? What is your counsel when it comes to this issue? [00:55:51] Speaker C: I'm going to ask you a question first. [00:55:53] Speaker B: Okay. [00:55:54] Speaker C: Why did you refer to it as so called marriage? [00:55:58] Speaker B: Oh, I said so called gay marriage. [00:56:00] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry. Because just in case somebody took offense to that, I want you to elaborate. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's not to offend. It's because biblically speaking, that is an oxymoron. Because marriage is only defined one way in the scriptures and there's simply not a category for a monogamous same sex relationship in New Testament ethics. It's something that there's such a thing as polygamy in the Bible, but again, that polygamy isn't marriage either. So called polyamorous Relationships I would put the same title to as well. [00:56:54] Speaker C: And that's not spoken of favorably in the Bible. Polygamy. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not spoken of. [00:56:59] Speaker C: Right. [00:57:00] Speaker A: It's just the reality of comes after the fall. [00:57:01] Speaker C: Yeah, it's after the fall, all the. [00:57:03] Speaker A: Way back to the beginning of this Genesis 1. Pre fall ideal God designed union is defined by one man and one woman. [00:57:11] Speaker C: Which is why Jesus goes back to Genesis 1, not to Solomon's 700 wives. But no, that's good, man. And that is foundationally true. And we're talking about marriage. It's not primarily a state sanctioned thing. It's foundationally something that is instituted by God. So yes, our country acknowledges that now, but that doesn't mean that that is all of a sudden. Right. It's, we can say so called marriage. Not out of, you know, what did you say? It's not meant to be like offensive. Offensive. Yeah, it's not meant to be offensive at all. It's just being clear that God is the one that instituted marriage. So we as human beings don't get to redefine that. And so again, it comes back to the pride issue of saying, well, I don't care what God says, I'm going to do what I want to do. And we're saying we're not. We're the ones saying that this is what God says and so we should, we should obey that. So anyways, that's. Thank you for answering that. You want to take a stab, Brad. [00:58:15] Speaker A: At whether or not a Christian brother or sister should attend a same sex wedding? Yes, is the question. I do not believe that a Christian brother or sister should attend a same sex wedding under any circumstances for the reasons that I mentioned, that I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, which is, man, there are all sorts of texts that we could point out, but 1 Corinthians 13 is defining what does it mean to love? Biblically, love does not delight in wrongdoing. It does not celebrate wrongdoing. And it's inconsistent to say that we believe homosexuality is a sin in all forms, but we're going to come to something that is, it's one of the great celebrations of life and marriage and we can't do that. I mean, I guess hypothetically there's a scenario where you could go to a same sex wedding as a curmudgeon and just be grumpy the whole time to show that you're not celebrating what's happening. But that's not what we're talking about. Our very presence. And this is hard I understand this is hard. You know, our very presence at those events communicates, verbally or non verbally, that we are assenting to and or celebrating with these folks over something that we're saying. We don't celebrate because we believe it's wrongdoing. [00:59:43] Speaker C: Yeah. It is specific to weddings because the purpose of being at a wedding. Yes. Is to celebrate the union, but it's also to. You are giving approval. I can't remember. I feel like I've heard this recently at a wedding, but it's not as common anymore. But used to be historically, like before they would marry the couple, they would talk to the crowd and say, hey, does anybody speak your piece? I don't know exactly what they say, but does anybody have anything against this union that actually happened, I think the last one or two weddings, I mean, what did that happen at a homosexual wedding? And you don't say anything. So that doesn't always happen anymore. But the reality of you being there at a wedding is making a statement, whether you mean for it to be or not. Now let's take this a little bit further. Let's say you have a homosexual couple that is friends of yours that you know, let's put it that way. And you want to love on them, you want to get to know them more and they invite you to a party at their house. It's just a party. They're being hospitable, inviting you into their house. Are you. Is it okay to go to that and not a wedding? Yes. Obvious. I think the answer is obvious. Yes. You're not approving of their union by going and engaging them. Again, we're not saying, oh, you're sinner, be away from me. We want to engage and be in people's lives and get to know them. And there's settings for that. True hospitality. Right. But things where the, the reality of you just being there is a statement of approval of what's happening, I think is where the trouble comes in. But I think we can take it even further because this might come up in some people's minds, well, what about a man and woman wedding? And they're both not Christians. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, so as one who like, I've officiated a lot of weddings, I've officiated a wedding of two non Christians. I don't think the scriptures have anything to say about that in regards to why we should not do that. Now, a Christian and a non Christian is different because you've got texts, 1 Corinthians 7, that talk explicitly about not being Unequally yoked with unbelievers, right? [01:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. [01:01:58] Speaker A: So I've denied those weddings in the past, and that's hard for people to hear, but you have to do it because the Bible tells you to do it. [01:02:04] Speaker C: Yes. And it's for their good. [01:02:06] Speaker A: It's for their good. [01:02:07] Speaker C: Why? [01:02:07] Speaker A: Paul says that with the desire that by the grace of God, they would come to repentance and. And faith in Jesus. Our aim is not ultimately to maintain relationships. We want to maintain relationships. We want to be peacemakers. We want to love everyone that the Lord brings our way. But our desire, our desire in planting Redemption Hill is to see sinners, by the grace of God, repent and believe upon Jesus and be matured in Jesus. So we have to be thinking that way. And again, I'll just close with this on my end, like the again. The marriage represents the gospel. One of the most beautiful moments of any wedding ceremony I've ever done, including my own, is watching as a husband, watching your bride walk down the aisle. Because there's something uniquely wonderful about what that foreshadows when the church will be presented to her bridegroom, the Lord Jesus and all of her splendor because of his finished work on her behalf. And only marriage as defined by God does that. Yeah. [01:03:12] Speaker B: Just as we wrap up this episode, I think about the disciples at the end of John 6, after Jesus has said, if you don't partake in my body and blood, you don't have a share in me. And the disciples say, teacher, this is a really hard saying. Who can understand it? Who can do it? What would you say to those, Aberdeen Hill Church, maybe other fellow Christians listening that are saying, I think I agree with you guys, but this is really difficult because I find myself in one or several of these situations. How can you speak a word of hope or exhortation for those Christians struggling with how to best honor God in these situations? [01:04:05] Speaker A: Okay, I would say, I love you, we love you. That's why we're doing this. Jesus is always worth it in every situation and circumstance, no matter what the sacrifice. We have to remind one another until he returns or we die to go be with the Lord, that he's worth it in everything. Whatever, whatever this cost you, he's worth it. He's always better. And so I think that's part of the Command of Hebrews 10. And not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but all the more as the day of the Lord is drawing near, we ought to encourage one another. What are we Encouraging one another in. If you could summarize it that way, Jesus is always worth it. [01:04:45] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. Just two quick things. One would be just fighting to believe that what God says is good and right is good and right. And I think that's important because our culture is constantly trying to tell us this is not good, this is not right. I mean, I think all of us could at some point, you know, does homosexuality really have to be bad? I mean, at some point in our lives, we've struggled with that. I did, early on. As a Christian, the reality is, do we believe that what God says is good and right is actually good? Not just that it's right, but that this is what's good for you and for people. And if we can get grounded in that, it does give us more, I think, foundation to stand firm on these truths. Because we're not just doing it to be correct, like we keep saying. We're doing it because we love God and we love people. And then second last thing I'll say is just, we have to do these things again in community. Like, if you're in this position or if you're like, gosh, I feel like I'm about to be in that position, like, that should give you a sense of urgency now. Like, let's wrestle through this. Let's get grounded and let's pray with one another, and let's encourage each other as we move forward so that we can stay faithful and not get off course. [01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really helpful. Pastors, thank you so much for stepping into these controversial, difficult waters, but yet being surgical with the scriptures and also just taking a very shepherding posture. So thank you for that. This has been the RHC podcast, Episode two. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you on the next one.