The Cause For Life (feat. Cindy Leach)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, y'all. The first three episodes of the Redemption Hell podcast are going to contain some heavier topic material. We wanted you to be aware of that, that not every podcast is going to be like this. But in light of the current season that we're in the other elders and I felt like these were necessary conversations for us to have. So we hope it's helpful and hope you enjoy the. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Welcome to the RHC podcast. This is episode three on the topic of the cause of life. I'm your host, Taylor Locke. I'm here, as always, with Pastor Brad and Pastor Sean. And today we have a very special guest, Cindy Leach from the Fort Worth Pregnancy center in Fort Worth, Texas. Cindy, thank you for being here. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Yes, Cindy, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Thank you. Well, it's a joy and an honor. Before we. Before we intro you, we like to do a fun icebreaker question just to get our minds going. So this is more of a seasonal icebreaker, and here it is. When is the appropriate time, in your opinion? [00:01:32] Speaker D: I know where this is going. [00:01:33] Speaker B: When is the appropriate time to begin celebrating Christmas? When do you start putting up the lights? When do you start playing the music? When is it? And do you feel strongly about it? [00:01:49] Speaker D: I must answer this first or my wife would kill me. And I'm going to answer it as I know she would want me to answer, which I partially agree with. No, I fully agree with. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:00] Speaker D: All right. After Thanksgiving, the question was Christmas, right? [00:02:04] Speaker B: Christmas, yeah. [00:02:05] Speaker A: After Thanksgiving, no Christmas music before. Okay. [00:02:09] Speaker C: Yes. [00:02:09] Speaker D: Okay. So you're getting into the music question. To me, that one I'm a little bit more flexible on. We do not listen to Christmas music in our house until. It used to be until December. But I think she's given me some leniency. We listen after Thanksgiving, which I agree with, because then you get to experience the fullness of the various holidays. And so after Thanksgiving is the appropriate, clear, objective answer. [00:02:35] Speaker A: I think our third pastor would say, correct me if I'm wrong, that Thanksgiving is not an actual holiday. Would he say that? [00:02:41] Speaker D: I think he would. [00:02:42] Speaker A: That it's like an in between. [00:02:43] Speaker D: I think he would say, because he would want to troll my wife. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:48] Speaker D: I don't know if he would fully. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Fully agree with that sentiment. We'll have to ask him. He'll hear this. What do you think, Cindy? [00:02:55] Speaker C: I can jump in. I'm with Jessica. I feel very strongly about Thanksgiving as an important holiday. It's one of the few holidays that has not been hyper secularized. And so, yeah, there's a Value to Thanksgiving. I will also say that this is one of the major marital conflicts in my household. Because my husband loves Christmas. He wants to do Christmas as early as possible. You know, the sooner the better. And so every year it is. No, no, no, we have to wait. We have to wait until after Thanksgiving. No, we're not getting that out. No, we're not getting that. And so. But this year, I will say Thanksgiving's awfully late. It's like the 28th this year. I think maybe there's only a few days. And we're traveling for Thanksgiving. And so we really do wanna have all our Christmas stuff ready. So when we come home, it's done. You know, we are in full Christmas mode. So a little compromise at the leech household this year, but no Thanksgiving. Yeah, we need to celebrate. [00:04:01] Speaker D: We'll give that answer. [00:04:02] Speaker A: That's the timeline. I am going to give a different answer. Okay. I don't know that my wife would agree with us. We're currently not listening to Christmas music, nor do we have Christmas lights up at the moment. But as soon as the weather turns for me and it starts to get, you know, 50, I'm game. [00:04:17] Speaker B: You're. You're ready to pick up the tree? [00:04:19] Speaker A: Ready? [00:04:20] Speaker D: Wow. [00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Best Christmas album of all time. Oh, my. Yeah. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Okay. All right. [00:04:27] Speaker A: A lot of cards on. [00:04:28] Speaker B: More of a weather thing. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. The weather turns. I start to feel like it's Christmas time. [00:04:33] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [00:04:34] Speaker A: I don't want to take away from the value of December 1st, so. I get it. I get the argument, but I could do it now. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Wow. So this is when we're recording this. This is November. What's today? November 11th. Yeah. All right. My. My opinion on it. I'm a big December 1st guy, so. And the reason is. It's a selfish reason. My birthday is always around Thanksgiving. I was born on November 26, and so I want. I just. I just want my birthday. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Oh. Yeah. [00:05:07] Speaker B: You know, I don't want Christmas around my birthday. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving's okay. Thanksgiving's allowed. [00:05:14] Speaker D: So what I'm hearing is we have three patriots and one person that hates America. He doesn't want to celebrate. [00:05:21] Speaker A: I love America so much that I could listen to the Christmas stuff now. [00:05:25] Speaker C: Man, I don't know if it's the love for America as much as giving thanks to God for things. [00:05:31] Speaker A: That's right. [00:05:32] Speaker C: So thank you, Jesus, for me. [00:05:33] Speaker A: You're welcome for giving a true Christian response. [00:05:36] Speaker C: I, too. [00:05:36] Speaker D: That is generally what Thanksgiving looks like for us, but there are some historical things to celebrate. As well. Thanksgiving. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:46] Speaker D: As well as Taylor's birthday. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:48] Speaker D: All right. [00:05:48] Speaker C: It's Taylor's birthday. [00:05:49] Speaker D: One other thing to say before we move on, I think at the beginning, and I guess the recording will show, if I heard this correctly, you said the Cause of Life, and I think the title is the Cause for Life. [00:06:02] Speaker B: The Cause for Life. [00:06:03] Speaker D: The Cause of Life. We understand what that is. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Open air rebuke from Pastor Sean. The Cause for Life is for Life. Yes. [00:06:13] Speaker D: Just if there was any confusion, which there might be up to this point. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:16] Speaker D: Okay. [00:06:17] Speaker B: All right. Cause for Life editors. Cindy, thank you for being here. We would love to hear, just from the outset, a little bit more about you. You're the chief executive officer of the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center. You have been for about three years now. How did you get to that place? And just where in your story and your testimony did you begin to really get a calling and a passion for caring for those with unwanted pregnancies? [00:06:55] Speaker C: Well, it is just the Lord's weaving of a story that brought me to where I am today and serving in this role and in leadership in this particular. This particular place at this time. So when growing up, I grew up, and I'm not going all the way back with my life story, don't worry. But I grew up in a church that just was really a solid biblical foundation, just really good Bible teaching. And that church opened a pregnancy center when I was in middle school, high school age. So, you know, I remember, you know, conversations about that sermon series about, you know, the cause for life things that really laid just a good theological foundation for life in me. But I really didn't do anything with that. So I would say, oh, sure, I'm pro life. I had that life theology, but didn't take a lot of action other than maybe participate in a diaper drive or maybe do a special project at our local pregnancy center, but certainly was not on the front lines of the life movement or anything like that. So, you know, fast forward to, oh, gosh, three years ago, I guess I'd been serving on church staff in women's ministry and children's ministry and just had enjoyed that very much and. But felt the Lord was leading me to a transitional season. The CEO at the Fort Worth Pregnancy center was retiring and working a succession plan. And so it turns out the two of us have a mutual friend. And so that mutual friend made the connection of really knowing that I felt like I was in a transitional place, knowing that Shelly was retiring. And she said, you know, I think you might be a good Fit for the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center. And I immediately said, no, no, thank you. I don't want to step into that politicized arena. That's not who I want to be. You know, I really lean more toward conflict avoidance or let's, you know, I don't really want to show my cards on, don't want to offend anyone, you know, in that side of things. So she said, well, just, why don't you just come to lunch? So I did. I went to lunch and toured the pregnancy center, met with Shelly and then again, just thought, I don't think so. And they said, well, just come to this next thing, you know. So over a three month period, it was, let's just have this next conversation. Well, you know, why don't you come to this? And the Lord just very gradually kind of held my hand through this call to, you know, the cause for life. So I went to the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center Starlight Ball, their annual fundraising event during this time period. And that really was the moment that the Lord clarified, this is what you need to do. This is the next step in your leadership and in your ministry. This is how I want you to invest your time in your life. And so I said yes to this crazy endeavor that I never. It's not like a career path, you know, that you have when you're in ministry. You just say yes to the next thing that the Lord, the door that he opens. And so now as I really have gone deeper into this, the Lord has created in me a passion for life that I did not know was there and has really placed this passion in me for women who were at the point of decision for the culture that is so contrary to life. And so, you know, pro death. And what can we do to really further the cause of Christ in this arena at this point in a woman's life and in a man's life and really, you know, change the trajectory of a family and point men and women toward hope and life. [00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:57] Speaker C: So it's a blessing. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Thank you for sharing that. Something that I really just love and adore about the work that you do and have done. Just part of your leadership, Cindy, is that, as you said, the cause of the gospel is really right at the heart of what you guys do. And you, y'all just unashamedly share Jesus with these women who are just in a really desperate place. And I just love that the person of Jesus is so central to the work that you're doing, because he is central. But it's just amazing to see that lived out in a very particular kind of way. [00:11:44] Speaker C: Well, it really is, you know, we don't want to just be pro birth or even to say that we're pro life, but there's this abundant life in Christ. There's eternal life through Jesus. So we see the much bigger issue of life than just that. A woman would give birth to a baby, much more. The needs in her life are much greater. How can we speak, hope and give support and really point her toward the Savior? Yeah, that's more than, you know, giving her practical resources. We want to give her those eternal spiritual resources to set her on that trajectory toward faith and toward just a future and hope. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Praise God for that. [00:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, as we consider the ways that the gospel informs our worldview on life, Pastor Brad, we thought it would be helpful maybe for us to just give a really broad theological worldview on why we as Christians should care about this question of life and life beginning at conception. So, brother, I know you have a few texts prepared. Maybe if you could just give us a quick biblical theological overview of life from a Christian worldview. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So would just start by saying when we talk about God's Word, we talk about it being true, good and beautiful. And we would all agree that emphatically, the Bible presents the most beautiful picture of humanity, that every single person who has ever lived, who is living, who will ever live, is created, is made in the image of God by God. Nobody's here by accident, and nothing else gives us that outside of the Bible, outside of the Christian worldview. So a few texts that I think are just important for us to talk about is prior to getting into historical context regarding abortion and the cause for life and those kinds of things as Christians, and we talk about this a lot at Redemption Hill, like, we must learn by the grace of God to view all of life through the lens of the Bible, to think about everything in life, all of our, you know, our cultural moment, and all of what's involved in that through the lens of God's heart as revealed through his word. So Genesis 1:27 says that God created man in his own image, in the image of God, he created them. So that is our foundational text to communicate this worldview that people have intrinsic worth, dignity and value, all people, Christian or not, because they're made in the image of God, but specifically as it pertains to life beginning at conception, which is really our discussion today, and why we should be fighting for life and the protection of life as life begins at conception. Psalm 139, verse 13. David says, for it was you, that being God, who created my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb. Isaiah 44:2 says, this is the word of the Lord, your maker, the one who formed you from the womb. He will help you. Do not fear Jacob, my servant Jeshuram, whom I have chosen. So these texts just further emphasize what Genesis 1:27 is saying, that from the moment of conception, this is a person made in the image of God, with intrinsic dignity, worth and value, worthy to be protected and fought for. Exodus 20. I think it's verse 13 is right in the kind of. The latter part of the Ten Commandments says, do not murder. And so you have this framework that both the Old and the New Testament paint very clearly that human beings, persons are made in the image of God. Sean's going to talk about the human person dichotomy, I assume. [00:15:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Yep. So persons are made in the image of God and life begins at conception. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Super helpful, Pastor Sean, as we know, and Cindy as well, the culture at large is not primarily approaching this from a biblical theological view. It's a political issue. It's very, very emotionally charged, the rhetoric around it when we talk about life and abortion and those kinds of things. So maybe if you could help us give kind of like a historical, cultural background to this conversation. [00:16:27] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. I'll try to be as clear and concise as Brad. Yeah. So the. I think the way that I've. It's been helpful to think about this is it really is a war that's going on, but it's a war of worldviews. And most of the discussion is around the political aspects of it, which is important, but I think foundationally, especially as Christians, we have to understand the worldviews that are at play. And I think just a quick Overview Going back three or 400 years, primarily in the intellectual spheres, which I want to just preface this. I'm not an expert when it comes to philosophy or any of these things, so I'm going to try to be as overview as possible. But there's this idea that develops over time that the person can be separated ultimately into a biological human. That is the physicality of a person. And then, well, this is where we get confusing with terminology. It's the physicality of the human. But that's not the only aspect of who we are. There's also the person, which is centered more in the mind, in our thinking. Whereas Brad, what he just outlined. Or outlined laid out. Yeah, just roll with it for us is a Understanding of the person as a whole person, biologically, physically, spiritually. We're unified in how we're created by God. And that's been, I think, the accepted reality, as far as I know, for forever. But over time, over the last several hundred years, this has been developing now to our day, where it's kind of made its way into the popular culture that I think we see in 1973 becomes part of law. And Roe v. Wade is the idea that a human fetus is not a person. And I think that this is where I think it's really important to understand the worldviews. Because if we would have understood a fetus to be a human person, then I don't think Roe v. Wade would have been possible. I can't remember who the justice was, but they essentially were referring to the 14th amendment. I think most of it had to do with the privacy aspect of due process and various aspects of the 14th Amendment. But there's also a part of the 14th Amendment that gives equal protection to all persons who are citizens. And if we understand a fetus as a person, then that individual has constitutional rights. And so Roe v. Wade established this idea of personhood theory, which is separating the human being into a biological, physical, a specimen and a person, which are two separate things. And so that fetus does not become a person until some point. And then we get from 1973 on all these various ideas of what it means to actually be a person. Of course, nobody can agree on it because it is a arbitrary thing that humans are deciding with. What we're saying is this is something intrinsic in how God has created us. We are holistic biological people that are the spiritual, biological aspect together unify into one person. So you get all this craziness with separating, which gets in ultimately becomes the law of the land. And then now, I think even reading some of the stuff currently after Roe v. Wade was overturned in 22, you get this idea that, that women's rights, that their constitutional rights are being taken away from them because Roe v. Wade was constitutional, which I think is incorrect, because what happened when Roe v. Wade was overturned? And again, I'm not a legal expert, I want to speak cautiously on this, but from my perspective, especially as a Christian, we were reinstituting the right of the fetus to life because the fetus is a human being. It is he, she is a person. And so then there's all kinds of other stuff we can talk about, which maybe we will. That's more like immediate right now. What happens after Roe v. Wade is overturned because there are things happening. But I think just to summarize the reality of the worldview that ultimately has determined that they're going to separate the fetus into a biological molecules in a person is the reality that all I don't want to. I just will summarize it in. The left's argument about abortion is able to be discussed because they have done that. And I'll just close reading one quote that I thought was just really telling that at some point they have to admit that biology and science is not on their side when it comes to the fetus being an actual human being. Everything necessary at conception is there for that person to develop into a full fledged human being. And so one person wrote this was basically. This is a. I think it's a journalist somewhere who had a baby and was struggling with their abortion stance. They ultimately came back to the left and are very pro abortion. But they basically said this. My daughter was formed at conception. Any other conclusion is a convenient lie that we on the pro choice side of the debate tell ourselves to make us feel better about the action of taking a life. She concludes, yes, abortion is killing, but it's the lesser evil. And the lesser evil she's talking about is the reality that if abortion is a law, or I'm sorry, it's a law against abortion, then we're taking away women's rights and killing a baby, an infant, a fetus, a fetus is lesser evil than taking away female reproductive rights. And I'll stop there. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Can I just say one thing to man? That's all really, really helpful, I think, for our folks, just in light of what Sean just said, that there are two primary worldviews at play at war with one another. One says that there is a fact value spl. And this conversation would apply to there is a human person split. There's a gap or a difference between a human and a person. And what we're saying is that the Bible emphatically says otherwise, that there is no human person split, that we are holistic beings made in the image of God. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really helpful, Pastor Sean, thank you for that. It was good philosophy, culture, history, kind of all in one. So thank you. Brother Cindy, I want to ask you about just kind of bringing it more into the present on a national level, the Dobbs decision. So maybe for our people who don't know what the Dobbs decision was, it was the Dobbs vs Jackson Supreme Court case in 2022 that stated that the Constitution does not confer a right to abortion and that the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and their elected representatives. So you were involved with the Fort Worth Pregnancy center before Dobbs, and now you're leading the center after Dobbs. What has changed in your work since the Dobbs decision? [00:25:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I really started in this position. I feel like the Lord has called us and our team for such a time as this because so much has changed in. I started three years ago at the end of 2021, Texas had just enacted the Heartbeat act, where abortions before could only be performed before the heartbeat was heard. So at that time, that was what you're talking about. The definition of a person was when you could hear a heartbeat or the word viability. You know, there's so much of that thrown around. What is the point of viability? So either a person is a person at conception or they're not. You know, so that's biblically and, you know, creation all accounts a person is a person from conception. So the heartbeat, scientifically. Yeah, thank you so much. That's true. Scientifically. The. There's a. So, yeah, the Heartbeat act had just been made law in Texas, so people were just reeling. Pregnancy centers that was. Were caught a little by surprise there. And what we saw in the women that we served was an urgency for verification of pregnancy, an urgency for a sonogram to know, can you hear this heartbeat? Or not? Because that was, you know, determining a woman's decision for abortion or for life was, can we hear this heartbeat? So there was a lot of conversation about how can we. Where we would typically say, and what we do believe is you need to take time and make an informed decision. Women didn't feel like they had that time. So there was, you know, several months of that, almost, almost a year in that paradigm where there was this urgency, fearfulness again for the women we serve. When Dobbs was overturned, Roe, when that decision was made, it really to me verified that there was never a constitution, it's not in the Constitution that a woman has a right to an abortion. So that's what was determined. No, this isn't constitutional. Let's kick it back to the states and let individual states decide. So in the state of Texas, a trigger law was already in place. So 90 days after Roe was overturned, in the event that that would ever then Texas had the trigger law where abortion would be illegal at all stages in the state of Texas. And so as a lifelong Texan, I celebrate that decision. That is, it's exciting to be in such a life affirming state. But at the same time, now there is this culture of terminology from the pro abortion things like, well, women have to flee Texas in order to get reproductive health care. And those kinds of terms really spin what's happening in an accurate way. You know, doctors in Texas and it's clear what that doctors can provide good medical care for women in the state of Texas. Women's lives are not at risk in the state of Texas because abortion is restricted here. But there's this fear mongering and that, you know, we have women who will come to our center and they don't know. It's like, am I going to be arrested if I pursue an abortion? If I, you know, take abortion pills and need to go to the emergency room, I need to lie to them because they'll take me to jail if I tell them that I've had an abortion. And so this fear is still very present in the parts of the women that we serve. And it's just misinformation, it's frankly lies that are perpetrate, permeated through our state to confuse women and the medical community. It's, it's. Anyway, that's what's, that's what's happening at the ground level. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. The state of Texas is been in national news the last few weeks. This is a headline from People magazine that says, Texas Teens suffering miscarriage dies Days after Baby Shower Due to Abortion Ban as mom begs Doctors to do something. Right. So that is framing and spin at the highest level right there because it's designed to provoke an emotional reaction from its readers who are not completely informed on Texas laws. And Pastor Sean, I'm going to go to you and ask you to read that in a second. But I think it's important for us as Christians, as believers when we see headlines like this. Obviously no one wants to hear of a mother dying and giving birth and miscarriage. And that's tragic. Right. We mourn that. But it's connecting it to this quote, unquote abortion ban in the state of Texas? It's immediately connected to that and saying actually these laws that Texas is holding is killing women and is killing the cause of life. And I think that we need to be aware of the just flat out lies, honestly, of these kinds of things. [00:30:43] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And that it's heartbreaking. Right. Because there's people dying and whatever the underlying cause is, it's really sad and terrible at the same time. It's infused infuriating that people are using this to attack something that's. It's kind of like a political angle to make the issue the abortion ban. And so again, we're not experts when it comes to the law. Just going to read what the law clearly states. People can make their own opinions. Texas state law, exceptions. This is from the law. State law. There is an exception for situations. This is regarding abortion in which the life of the life or health of the pregnant patient is at risk. In order for the exception to apply, three factors must be met. One, a licensed physician must perform the abortion. Two, the patient must have a life threatening condition and be at risk of death or substantial impairment of a major bodily function if the abortion is not performed. Substantial impairment of a major bodily function is not defined in this chapter. The physician and thirdly, the physician must try to save the life of the fetus unless this would increase the risk of the pregnant patient's death or impairment. And so again, I don't speak legalese, but the language seems pretty clear to me. And so I think the again, it's tragic. There's issues that are happening and I think even one of those stories, it sounds like part of it was just the doctors messed up. They didn't catch something that they should have caught. Has nothing to do with the abortion ban. But in another sense, which I think it's very possible that it's real, there's doctors that are fearful of what's going to happen. All we're saying is that the law makes provisions for these situations. I've heard of multiple people that have had ectopic pregnancies that have been able to get abortion care very easily because it's an unviable pregnancy and it's a huge risk for the individual. And so the issue I think is less with, hey, there's an abortion ban that's causing these women's death. The abortion ban is obviously saving thousands and thousands of lives and making provisions because contrary to popular belief, the state of Texas does care about women and does care about women's rights and does want to protect them. So the issue is with the medical community and maybe with the state legislature on clarifying to make sure that they can actually provide the care when needed and make the best medical judgments. But what's infuriating is that they're using this as a hey, see, we told you abortion was going to lead to more people's deaths. I'm sorry, abortion ban. Which is just flat out. [00:33:39] Speaker C: That's right. [00:33:41] Speaker D: And even more infuriating is that I'm seeing this infiltrating. The church people are buying these arguments and saying hey, actually abortion is a really nuanced issue. We shouldn't just take one side or the other. That is exactly what they are wanting when they're pushing these ideas to muddy the water as much as possible. [00:34:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cindy. [00:34:05] Speaker C: Well, and you can't discount the fact that the abortion industry is for profit. And there's a massive lobbying effort by those who profit off the women at their most vulnerable place. You know, the women we serve, none of them have said, oh yeah, I want this abortion. They feel like that's their only option, that they don't have any other choices. There's not anything else I can do. I'm gonna have to have this abortion that I don't want. And so abortion provider is gonna say, oh yeah, we'll provide that for you and make a profit off of her at that. Again, that most vulner moment for her as a pregnant woman. So how can we come alongside and speak that hope and life and be. It is countercultural now, which grieves me that what we know to be true, like we said scientifically and biblically from the way that God has created people for that to be that truth to be replaced with, I guess it goes back to the absence of absolute truth. You know, we have this relative truth. Well, what's true for you, you know, may not be true for me. And we know that's, that's not accurate either. [00:35:14] Speaker A: That's not reality. [00:35:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:16] Speaker D: I'm going to say one other thing on this before we move on that's probably going to be very, very unpopular, but I'm going to say it anyways because I think this is something that we often are not talking about, that the statistics show clearly is a huge problem. And when we're talking about saving babies lives, we're also, and I think the Fort Worth Pregnancy center does a great job of this, desiring to care for the women who are involved with considering abortion, who have gone through abortion. We are about caring for them. And the reality is the majority of abortions are happening in single women who are feeling like they're being pinned into a corner. And the reality of children being born in non married families escalating in the last 50 years in all the populations. This isn't just in like the black community or the white community across the board that has become a taboo topic because since the sexual revolution in the 60s, don't tell me what to do with my body. Don't tell me who I can sleep with. And okay, sure, from a political perspective, yes, but what we're saying is that there are repercussions of that. But nobody's willing to say, hey, the issue is, is partly related to a systemic problem of the breakdown of the family in America that is leading to more and more women being put in these positions where they're not in a stable family situation. So people that want to say, yeah, let's be pro life, but let's also talk about holistically. Let's talk about holistically the importance of the family in America and the breakdown of that. The numbers now, percentage wise, are insane. I was seeing some statistics recently in the, just the black community, for example. I think in the 60s, children that were born out of wedlock, it was like 20, 25%. It's. It's over three quarters now. It's like in the 70s in white. The white community, it was less in the 60s. I think it was like, in the teens, is now over 50%. And so the breakdown of family is what's contributing to an abortion epidemic. But nobody wants to talk about that because that's like a taboo subject. But as Christians, we do value and emphasize the importance of the family and that stability in that family structure, which, lo and behold, is actually beneficial for society. But that's not what the other side of this is promoting, for sure. Reproductive freedom, individual freedom to do whatever you want. [00:38:01] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. One of the. Again, proud to be a Texan. Thriving Texas families is one of the state initiatives. And so millions of dollars from the state of Texas into communities to support families, single parents, families in need. So while it says, oh, Texans, they're anti women because we've restricted abortion here, when on the contrary, we have upped what we're spending to support the family and to really empower and equip women and men to, you know, have healthy children and healthy families and to restore again what's been broken. And we know that the gospel is the ultimate restoration for broken families and broken people. There are. So the church, that's a place where we can rally and we can talk about that in more depth later. But as a state, there's. It's just a falsehood. A falsehood that the restrictions on abortion are harmful to women when the facts show that Texans are doing everything we can as a state to support and to rally around the needs of women. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:22] Speaker D: Really? [00:39:23] Speaker B: Really. [00:39:23] Speaker D: I think we'll talk about some ways that the Fort Worth Pregnancy center is doing that, but let's. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say this is. This is more the reason that you hear so much passion in Cindy's voice and Pastor Sean's voice and Pastor Brad's voice. This is more than culture war. This is about truth. This is about life. This is about saving innocent lives who are made in God's image. And so. [00:39:55] Speaker D: And all the issues we're talking about are about not just saving lives, but it's the good of everybody involved, the good of human flourish, of human flourishing. We are for women. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:07] Speaker D: We're not for feminism, which is bad for women, which is another topic. But that actually absolutely plays into the abortion discussion. But we are from a biblical perspective, because we love Jesus, because we love people. Everything, even the family stuff that's unpopular to talk about is all for the good of people. [00:40:26] Speaker A: True. [00:40:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:27] Speaker A: I just want to encourage our folks at Redemption Hill. We, as a church, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, friends, we honor to be lockstep on how clear this issue is. This is not a nuanced issue. We've talked a lot about, you know, jagged lines and straight lines. As we think about the political landscape and all the things that we could disagree on that the Bible is not clear about, we should have a ton of charitability with one another on those things and be able to come to the table and disagree. But. But abortion, it is. It's so emphatically clear in the Bible. It matters to the heart of God. It is a matter of life and death. It's. It's not. It's not a nuanced issue. And, you know, for us to really make a gospel kingdom impact in our city as we desire to do, as we pray to do, like, we have to be lockstep that this is not a nuanced issue. [00:41:16] Speaker D: Yeah. And I think even beyond that, because I feel like everybody at the church would agree with that. I think post Roe v. Wade, I think people agree with that. But there's nuance that is playing in to how we move forward. That I think hopefully this discussion is at least bringing some clarity to that. But I just want to say if anybody at Redemption Hill is listening to this and is struggling with some of the things we're talking about or even disagrees, can we talk about it? Can we have conversations? I mean, that's part of the purpose of this, is not only for us to just speak out into the airwaves, but for it to stimulate good, healthy conversation within the church. [00:42:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Yeah. It's really good. Cindy, we'd love to hear about what's happening at the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center. Today and the work that you're doing, the things that you've seen in 2024, and also how we as a church body can get involved and partner with the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center. We do now, in a few ways. People don't know this, but Pastor Sean is recently on the board of the Fort Worth Pregnancy center, which is just a huge blessing. But all of that to say what is going on? [00:42:44] Speaker D: You got a shout out to Barbie as well, if you're gonna. [00:42:46] Speaker B: And shout out to. [00:42:47] Speaker C: That's right, yeah. Serving as a volunteer for Delaney. [00:42:53] Speaker B: Barbie Caceres Delaney. Yes. What is happening, Cindy, at the Fort Worth Pregnancy center that you're seeing on a day to day level? [00:43:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So you had asked what had changed kind of post Roe, and once the Dobbs decision was decided. Huh. Our board, in looking at how things had changed culturally with that decision, we really doubled down on who is our primary client. What's the purpose? What's our mission? Why? Why does the Fort Worth Pregnancy center even exist? So our mission is to empower young women and men to make positive decisions about their unplanned pregnancy. And the board really identified and doubled down that the abortion minded, abortion determined woman, that's our primary client. That's where we need to focus our energy and our resources and our appointment time slots, all of the things that go with that. So there are many pregnant women in Fort Worth with needs of varying kinds. And they may have an unplanned pregnancy, but it's not necessarily an unwanted or unwelcome pregnancy. And so, yes, those women, they need resources. And again, that Texas Thriving Texas Families is a great resource and there's help available for us. We really want to focus our attention on that woman who again, her pregnancy is not only unplanned, it is unwelcome, unwanted. She's looking for. She really thinks abortion is the best solution for me. And so that's who we're trying to reach. So the changes that we've made come into play with how we advertise that we really, you know, want to reach her and help her understand that before having an abortion, before making a trip out of state, before ordering abortion pills online, you need to check your own health. Those are risky decisions to make. And so let's determine. We can help her determine, is your pregnancy even viable? Like is it an ectopic pregnancy that is a life threatening condition? So we can see that by sonogram. We can help date her pregnancy because depending on how far along she is, there are different abortion procedures that she needs to be aware to make an informed decision to say, okay, well, you're, you know, you're 12 weeks along. That means that you're going to require a surgical abortion of this type and that's what's involved in that procedure. So she really understands what again, informed decision is what we want. And then we also have a chance to offer the other options. When a woman comes in and thinks because of her relationships complications, because of her financial limitations, she really feels like abortion is her best option or she's being pressured to have an abortion as well, we want to help her know that there are other choices, there's support available. So we'll talk to her about parenting and what that can look like and what support's available for her. We can talk to her about adoption and that might be a really good choice for her to make a life affirming decision and educate her on what modern adoption looks like, that you're not giving up your baby, you're choosing parents for your child, you're choosing that family for them and you can stay as involved as you desire as that birth mom. So just helping her see, I guess, rise above the circumstance, you know, when you're looking at the crisis, you know, that's all you can see is the obstacles and the problems in front of you. But we want to help her really lift her eyes and see, you know, there's, there's bigger solutions, there's life affirming a decision that you can feel hopeful about and you know, again, just that promotes life and doesn't just bring that cloud of death over her decision. So that's where we come alongside. So our advocates will speak, help answer her questions and educate her. You know, we offer support after she makes her decision. You know, if she chooses life, then we have and parenting, then we have education classes, prenatal education for her material assistance. You know, we want to really stay with her all the way through her pregnancy and into early parenting and set her up for success. Ideally, we would have a handoff for her to a community that's going to care well for her. A church community is really what we're looking for. So a church like Redemption Hill can be ready to receive women in, you know, really, maybe in really messy situations to help really support her as she chooses life. Yeah. So I could go on and on and on and on and on. [00:47:54] Speaker D: So fantastic. [00:47:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:56] Speaker D: How much of that is free? [00:47:58] Speaker C: All of it. All of it is free. So we are privately funded through donors like many at Redemption Hill. So we have churches that sponsor and may make donations through that church budget regularly to us. We'll write grants to different organizations, but we don't receive any government funding. We are privately and independently funded through the generosity of people like you. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Thank you for what you do. Yeah. It's amazing. [00:48:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:27] Speaker D: And I think this is like where I love this discussion because we're talking about big worldview, philosophical, political things that are really important now and for the future of our country and the people involved. But we're also talking about boots on the ground, people who are are in the mess right now and how do we serve and care for them. So just really thankful, Cindy, for all y'all do. [00:48:53] Speaker C: And that really is our mission. Just to be, you know, knee to knee with a woman at a crisis point in her life. You know, it's. And it's not just her life because there is a life involved. It's a literal life and death situation. And so she's choosing, you know, weighing in the balance this decision on what to do about her pregnancy. So it's going to be a landmark event in her life regardless of her choice. If she chooses parenting, that's a massive change for her to step into parenting or to add a child to a family. If she chooses adoption, that's a milestone in her life that she's going to remember. If she chooses abortion, that is again, a milestone, a marker in her life that is going to be. She's going to remember. And we want to help her for that marker in her life, that moment, to be positive and to be life affirming and to help her to make a choice that she can really move forward without regret. [00:49:58] Speaker B: That's really helpful. [00:49:58] Speaker A: That's really good. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Cindy, what are some ways that the people of Redemption Hill can get involved and serve at the Fort Worth Pregnancy Center? [00:50:06] Speaker C: Well, we're my background, I didn't talk about this much, but it's children's ministry. And so I don't know how many times we've taught children, you can pray, you can give, and you can serve. And those really are still the three simple things that you can do with Fort Worth Pregnancy Center. So you can become a prayer partner with us. And we send out real time prayer partner emails for clients that we saw, you know, same day, same week. So you can be praying for those folks at the point of their decision for those couples, not only women. I don't want to neglect the service that we provide to men as well, which is growing and exciting. But yeah, praying and really supporting in that way. We have the opportunity to give, of course, to be a financial supporter. Again, we're independently funded, so we welcome donations and financial partners at any level, any and all levels. So small gifts to large gifts. Every gift matters and helps to save a life and then of course, to serve and to step in as a volunteer. And those volunteer opportunities can look, there's a wide variety based on, you know, the individual volunteers, time availability, skill set. You know, there's things that are client facing and things that are behind the scenes. You know, helping with landscaping or sorting baby clothes or things that can be, again, behind the scenes all the way to that conversation with a woman at her point of decision. Also medical volunteers, bilingual volunteers, those things are welcome, welcome and wanted. But if one other thing, you know, thinking through just even this conversation, to speak up for life in your circles of influence, that would be a great way that folks at Redemption Hill can be involved, to not avoid those conversations or be afraid to step in because it might be the unpopular opinion in the room, but to boldly speak up for the truth about life in your circles of influence, that makes a huge difference in again, planting seeds of a different train of thought for someone to help, I don't know, shift the culture away from where abortion is not just unattainable in Texas, but it really becomes unthinkable. Like how could we have allowed this in our lifetime? That's where we want the culture to shift to. [00:52:25] Speaker D: Right? [00:52:25] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:52:26] Speaker D: Can you speak just real briefly? You've mentioned men. [00:52:29] Speaker C: Oh man, that is so exciting. So, you know, you may not be aware that every pregnancy involved involves a man. So, you know, while we serve women and we do talk about single women or single moms and needing, you know, that she needs extra support and sometimes she does. She is the one who is pregnant, but he's involved as well. And so we want to equip him to be able to influence her for life as well and to make a life affirming decision. As the father of the baby, he has a voice. Culture will say he, you know, this my body, my choice. Men, you stay out of it. Well, we disagree with that philosophy. We think that men do. We believe that men do have a voice and that he should be able to speak into that decision and protect the life of his baby and step up to provide for the needs of his family. So again, we're not just about pro birth, but pro life and abundant life. And we believe that's healthy families centered on the gospel, connected in church. And so that's our, our mission. Is not only again to empower men and women to make positive decisions about their unplanned pregnancy, but those positive decisions include decisions for Christ, decisions for family, decisions really to that can change the trajectory of a whole family. [00:53:55] Speaker D: Praise God. [00:53:56] Speaker B: Cindy, we're grateful for you. We're grateful for the work that you're doing in the city of Fort Worth and excited to continue to partner with you in the future. Future. Pastor Brad thought we could close just with a gospel exhortation on this issue. It's not just abstract. We know for some of our people that this can be very personal and experiential. And so, brother, we'd love if you just close with a gospel word for us on the cause for life. [00:54:28] Speaker A: Could we do this? Sure. I would love to hear just very, you know, as these are not concise conversations, Cindy, but as concisely as possible. Maybe if we hit it from the angle of what would you say to a young woman and young man or you know, who are considering abortion? And then I can hit it from what if you've already had an abortion? [00:54:49] Speaker C: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So to that young. That young woman and that young man considering abortion. You know, we want to speak hope to their. To that situation, really, when nobody wants an abortion, who can. We have not had anyone who's, oh, I got pregnant just so I can have an abortion. You know, there's this unexpectedness to it. There's a crisis. And so they often just don't see the hope for the future. And so I just need to make this decision quick and easy and painless. And so let's make it stop. But that really is not the solution. So we're going to speak hope that there's hope beyond today, that there is joy to come, that there's a bright future ahead. And you can, you don't have choose between my dreams and my pregnancy. You know, it really is. We can have both. We can support women and babies. We can do. We can go to school and be a parent. Those are the encouragement that we have. And then we're always going to want to speak to her and him about faith in Christ. You know, we do that with their permission. We're not going to, you know, we're not going to preach to someone who really is not going to want that. But we're going to ask and say, hey, you know, how does your faith play into this decision? You know, can I share with you how my faith has helped me at moments of decision like this and really be able to share the Hope of the gospel of Christ with them as well. [00:56:16] Speaker A: It's awesome. I would make two quick statements. One to the person who is not a Christian, who comes into Redemption Hill, or maybe that we meet who has already had an abortion. So let's just say, hypothetically, the young woman. Everything that has been said, obviously, regarding the vulnerable and the brokenness and the fear and all of those things, you just see the perfect example in Jesus. So John, chapter four, when Jesus talks to the woman at the well, I think is such a. And as one who has a great interest in counseling, I think it's a wonderful example of what counseling is intended to look like. Jesus doesn't berate her. He doesn't condemn her. He asks her a series of questions intended to get to the heart of her shame. And in that moment or in that place, he says, if you knew the gift of God and who was saying to you, give me a drink, you would ask him and he would give you living water. Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. That's the literal water from the well. But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him or her will never get thirsty again. In fact, the water I will give them will become a well of water springing up in him for eternal life. So I would simply call this young woman or young man to Jesus to repent of their sin and believe upon Jesus. There is a day of judgment coming by which Jesus will return from heaven to earth to judge the living and the dead. And today he's alive, and he invites all people to repent of their sin and believe upon Jesus. And then to the Christian who, you know, maybe they had an abortion and they became a believer at some point, gosh, would just remind them of their positional status in Jesus. Paul was a murderer, and Jesus saved Paul. And nobody wrote more in the New Testament about what it meant to have union with God than Paul did. He says, my life has been crucified, and it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And for the believer that is true, your past sins do not define you anymore. The blood of Jesus does. And so, just to continue as all of us need to be reminded time after time after time that we are new creations, that there is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. [00:58:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great place to end that Jesus will return and make all things new. And as CS Lewis said, everything sad will become undone. So this has been the RHC podcast. I want to thank you for listening and joining us. Special. Thank you to Cindy Leach for being with us in this conversation. Love you guys.