Can you believe in Aliens if you believe the Bible?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What's up, everybody? This is asking for a neighbor. And we talk about God and Jesus and answer any of the questions that you may have. Yes, you. About God, faith, and what it means to follow Jesus. I'm your host, sky, and today we're actually short a dude, but we have Brad Holcomb here from rhc, and it's gonna get Western. [00:00:25] Speaker B: So what does that mean? [00:00:27] Speaker A: It means. [00:00:28] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:00:28] Speaker A: The question's really spicy. I guess that's what it means. All right, Brad, I've got a question for you, and it is. [00:00:35] Speaker B: No warm up question before we get into the question question. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah. No, wait. What do you mean? [00:00:39] Speaker B: Is this a warmup or is this, like, the question for the. [00:00:41] Speaker A: For the podcast? No, no, no, no. This is a warmup, I guess. Still intense. [00:00:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:00:46] Speaker A: No, we're on it. What do you. Hold on a second. I think you're confusing it. It doesn't really matter. Recently we talked about this, and I think that I was surprised by your take. And I think, honestly, I think a lot of people would be surprised by your take. But the question for me is, is there room for aliens? [00:01:02] Speaker B: Oh, [00:01:04] Speaker A: based on the Bible. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:06] Speaker A: You know, everything we believe. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, can I. Before I drop, like, the supposed bombshell of what my view is, can you tell me what it was that was surprising to you about it? Without giving it away? Like, why were you surprised? [00:01:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, I was surprised because. I mean. Well, I don't know. You know, maybe I was surprised because sometimes I think this is a generalization. Sometimes I think pastors aren't concerned with those types of things. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Because it's like, why would you be? [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:49] Speaker A: You know, we're concerned with God, and God is the Almighty, and that's all true. But also, like, can we have some fun and talk about these random weird things, like, might be true or whatever, you know? Yeah, that's. That's aliens, right? It's like this weird topic that everyone wants to, I don't know, kind of get into, and I guess it can be controversial. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:06] Speaker A: To me, it's kind of fun. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:09] Speaker A: That's kind of. I guess that's why it surprised me. [00:02:11] Speaker B: I had an opinion. [00:02:13] Speaker A: You've thought about it means you've thought about it. Yeah. And I'm like. I'm like, oh, cool. So even. Even a pastor of a church is thinking about this kind of stuff. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Oh, man. Well, yeah, I've always been this way, man. Like, long before I became a Christian. When I was a kid, I Remember like, you know, and this was not always to my benefit, often to my detriment in my grades, but would often just kind of stare into space. Not literally that we're talking about space, but just kind of absent minded a little bit in what I was doing because I was always thinking about just stuff. I was thinking about big things. But. Yeah. So you want to know what I think? You want to know what I think about aliens? [00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah, potentially. Yeah. I mean first, first and foremost is, is there, is there room for it? And then second would be, yeah, what are your thoughts? And then also bring up the article, [00:02:59] Speaker B: you know, the C.S. lewis. Yes. Yeah, C.S. lewis is great. So all right. This would be kind of my bottom line statement that I made to you the other night. I think that first of all, the stuff coming out by the government, this disclosed UFO file, uap, whatever, whatever we call them now isn't super convincing to me. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Oh yeah, right. [00:03:23] Speaker B: So I think that that's point one to be made is I'm not, I haven't seen anything yet that's been like, oh my gosh, that's mind blowing. Or, or super convincing. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Had you beforehand? [00:03:33] Speaker B: No. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Disclosure. [00:03:35] Speaker B: No, no, no. But I mean it just, yeah, it's, it, it. They're just making such a big deal about it, you know, like this big rollout. There's this big rollout of this disclosure of stuff. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Oh, they are for sure. [00:03:45] Speaker B: And it's just not. [00:03:45] Speaker A: It's just funny because I've seen stuff previously that was more convincing than the stuff there. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Oh really? 100%. Dude. [00:03:50] Speaker A: There's a, there's anecdotal, like there's stories that you're just like, man, they're, that, you know, 10 plus people are telling the same story. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:57] Speaker A: They didn't know each other. I mean, kind of weird. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny. What I was going to say is like a disclaimer of like the conversation in general. I, I do think it is the job of the pastor to, to be aware of what's going on. Right. So like not just what's going on in society, but what are, what are blight people out in the world? Like what, what are they thinking about? Yeah. Because that's not exclusive to people outside of the church. Like that's people, people in our church are thinking about these things or being inundated by the news with all sorts of stuff. And like as a pastor you do need to know, you need to know what's going on in the world and see and not C.S. lewis, Eugene Peterson, who Wrote a really great book called the Pastor Talks About. You know, one of the primary responsibilities of the job is to know what's going on in the world and then. And then help people bring Jesus to bear in those things. Which I think is what we're doing with the alien conversation. Like, it is fun, it is interesting. It's all those kinds of things. And it totally has to do with God and a biblical worldview and all of that. So anyways, I think it is possible that there's space for something like extraterrestrial life. I do not believe at all that if we found anything, whether it be like alien plant life or animal life or anything like that, it's not. They're not made in the image of God. Human beings alone are made in the image of God, and the Bible's explicitly clear about that. But the Bible does not tell us everything about everything. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:26] Speaker B: So we. There are all sorts of things that we can be super clear about. Jesus is God, heaven and hell are real, et cetera. Like, all sorts of things. And then, you know, billions of things. Maybe not billions, I don't know. Lots and lots of. Lots and lots of things about the world. [00:05:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:43] Speaker B: That the Bible does not tell us because it's not intended to tell us all of those things. Right. So, yeah, man, I think there's space. I think that even in the. The wild scenario that, you know, things were to come out, it was like, hey, we. Here is one. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Which is kind of, I think, for me, what it would take. Like, I've got to see an alien. Like, don't. Don't show me. Don't show me a blip on a screen. [00:06:06] Speaker A: And it's gotta be in person. [00:06:08] Speaker B: In person. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Like. [00:06:09] Speaker B: Oh, true. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:11] Speaker A: There's this fake ones that came out of Brazil. They were finger creatures or whatever. [00:06:15] Speaker B: You talking about the little bitty ones? [00:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah, dude. Little claws. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, they were fake. Oh, funny. Yeah, I know that. [00:06:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's hilarious. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. In person, dude. [00:06:25] Speaker B: In person. Show me an in person alien. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Do you think that. Can they be like, man, I don't know. Everyone talks about how intelligent they might be, right? [00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Is there room for that? See, because like, intelligence does not mean God's image. So. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:38] Speaker A: We're talking about plant life and animals. That's great. But I mean, like, if there's a. A being out there that can think and do things. I think you were saying, C.S. lewis was talking about this, but is there, like, where's the. Where is the Line there. [00:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna read Lewis's quote and then we can. We can just riff on that. But I was gonna say something else, man. About. About this. Oh, we talked about this the other night too. It's possible that it's demonic stuff too. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Well, that's. You said. Yeah, you did say. That's kind of what. [00:07:05] Speaker B: That's totally possible. Right, Right. Like that. That the. Some of the sightings and things like that are demons. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:11] Speaker B: I mean, the scripture is like, filled with all sorts of examples of. Of angelic beings and you know, what. What we might consider to be like extra dimensional beings or whatever the phrase is. You read the book of Ezekiel. It's like they're just that the prophet Ezekiel saw. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:32] Speaker B: You know, and I don't believe they were aliens, but like. But our perception here of, you know, things like that in the unseen realm. Angels, demons, things like that, that the Bible's super clear and testifies to, like our perception could be. Oh, that's an alien. [00:07:48] Speaker A: So you don't think. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Is it in reality? It isn't. [00:07:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:07:52] Speaker B: I think Ezekiel saw angels. [00:07:53] Speaker A: So. But I was going to ask you because I think. Is it explicit? Do you think Ezekiel was more of a vision or do you think it's like this is what he saw? [00:08:01] Speaker B: I think, I think that, yeah. The Lord peeled back the layer of the unseen realm. Yeah. And he saw what is there right now. [00:08:10] Speaker A: Isn't that talked about? Don't people think it's like symbolism or a vision? Some people or. [00:08:15] Speaker B: No. Like, some people think that what he saw wasn't literal, like it was just a symbol of something. Oh, probably, Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of that in the book of Revelation. Right. [00:08:22] Speaker A: And that's why I'm saying that, like, oh, well, it's just another. Because I'm like, I don't think it is. [00:08:26] Speaker B: No, I think. I think. I think Ezekiel is different than Revelation. Okay. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Wow. [00:08:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:30] Speaker A: That's cool. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. That always surprised me when I would read Ezekiel and I'm like, yeah. And y' all are telling me that, like, there's not something else out there, you know? I was like, what the heck? Maybe you're right. Maybe it's angels, demons, vice versa, whole spiritual realm that we don't even know. [00:08:43] Speaker B: We don't talk about it, man, like, ever. Like, I never took a class on there. There was a guy who taught at the seminary when Sydney and I first moved here who taught a demonology class. And. And I didn't take It. But I wish I would have because it would have been fascinating. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Why did. Wait, did you actually explicitly choose not to? [00:08:58] Speaker B: No. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:08:59] Speaker B: No, I just had to take other stuff. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Okay, got you. [00:09:01] Speaker B: But. But no, man, I'm like, do a class on angels and demons. That'd be amazing. [00:09:05] Speaker A: That would be pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. But, yeah, if you want to go ahead and read his quote on that, I think. I think it was different than what you expected. Well, and what I expected from his view on it. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:17] Speaker A: And, yeah, just with current events, I mean, as an aside, it's pretty clear to me that what the government is doing is. Is more than just, oh, there's aliens out there. They're really pushing it really hard. And it seems like, yeah, kind of more psyop. What are we doing here? [00:09:35] Speaker B: I know, it's. [00:09:35] Speaker A: It's kind of crazy how much they're talking about it. The unfortunate part is that, yeah, I kind of do believe there's something else going on, but. But whether or not, you know, I don't. I don't have to know what that is, I guess. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:46] Speaker A: You know, God's still God. [00:09:47] Speaker B: You know, he is. [00:09:48] Speaker A: So. [00:09:50] Speaker B: All right, let me. I'll read this little paragraph here. Okay. It says, first, Lewis published an essay titled Religion and Rockets. So if you're listening and you want to read the essay, I have not read it in its entirety, so you can do that. That can be found in a lesser known book, the World's Last Night and Other Essays. Lewis's faithful fans may be surprised to find that the author seems quite open to the possibility of discovering extraterrestri life, something he believed begged a bigger question. How can we, without absurd arrogance. This is his quote. How can we, without absurd arrogance, believe ourselves to have been uniquely favored if humans did find alien animal life, he believed discovering alien plant life would be theologically insignificant. Lewis said they would need to. They would need to determine if these alien beings were rational, have, quote, spiritual sense, and are fallen like humans are. So Lewis goes further, it sounds like, than I would go, yeah, he really [00:10:49] Speaker A: got into the weeds of it. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Even, like, even. Even assuming or being open to the possibility that they are, like, fallen, like we are, have spiritual sense. When we talk about made in the image of God, that's a whole nother conversation of what does that actually mean? [00:11:01] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Like, you know, and getting into the difference between humans and animals. Certain things we have capacities we have that animals do not have because we're made in the image Of God. Like, I'm not even open to the possibility of alien life. Quote unquote. What means having any of those capacities that we do as being made in the image of God? [00:11:20] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, yeah. So would it be mainly. So it's primarily the. The spiritual sense. Like they have no. They have no spiritual being, so to speak. Does it? Or does that. Does it also rule out intelligence for you? [00:11:34] Speaker B: I think it depends on what intelligence means. [00:11:36] Speaker A: I know. [00:11:36] Speaker B: Is a dog intelligent? [00:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good question, dude. I mean, octa, octopi, I guess on that. Or singular. Yeah, right. Or apparently highly intelligent. You. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:48] Speaker A: To be able to do what they do. Ants, dude. They're out here doing it. But is that just programmatic by God? [00:11:53] Speaker B: You know, I think they're doing what they're designed to do. Right. [00:11:56] Speaker A: So like, what if we are. [00:11:57] Speaker B: I think. I think we are the one species in the universe. Free will, not doing what we are designed to do. [00:12:04] Speaker A: I see what you're saying. Oh, wow. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Because we've rebelled against God and that's the. The curse of sin. So. [00:12:10] Speaker A: Man, what a discussion, dude. That's a good way to preach the gospel. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Have you ever thought about that? Dogs. Dogs do what dogs do. [00:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:17] Speaker B: They do what they were made to do. [00:12:18] Speaker A: It's just a good. I've never compared the two that closely. I guess that seems like an easy comparison. Why haven't I. I guess. [00:12:24] Speaker B: But I mean, you could go down that, you know, you. You could go down that road of like, okay, well, a dog attacking another dog as a result of the fall and you know, think things like that. [00:12:33] Speaker A: But sure. [00:12:34] Speaker B: The point is that animals do what their nature requires them to do. [00:12:38] Speaker A: I'm just thinking about that being a question for the non believer. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Like. Yeah. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Hey, have you ever thought about the fact that everything else does. Everything that are like programmed to do, they're designed to do and we don't? Why do you think that is? [00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:49] Speaker A: And then bam. [00:12:49] Speaker B: That's a great question. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Wow, that's crazy. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Why. Why are you. Yeah, why haven't I. Man, Brad out here with the one liners now, man. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Don't talk about aliens enough. I guess that's the problem. [00:13:01] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:13:02] Speaker B: I was. There was something else, man, that Louis wrote that. Okay. He said if humans. Wait, that's what I just read. Fallen. Like we are. There was something he said about Sydney actually read this to me the other day and I was like, wow, that's so interesting that he thought that. But. Or that he said that. Let's See? [00:13:27] Speaker A: Well, if you're listening out there, you guys can tell us what you think about aliens, too. Christian or not. You know, I just kind of want to know what you guys think, and you can comment or. That's pretty much it. You can comment. [00:13:40] Speaker B: I found it. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Nice. [00:13:42] Speaker B: All right. If all three were present in these extraterrestrial life forms, and if we discovered that no form of redemption had reached them. So he's, like, talking about redemption within this alien species. Super interesting. Then the human task might be to evangelize them. [00:13:56] Speaker A: Whoa. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Think about that. Be the first missionary to the aliens. [00:13:59] Speaker A: Hold on a second. Why is he saying that if he's saying they can't also, like, they can't bear the image of God. [00:14:05] Speaker B: He hasn't explicitly said that. I. Maybe he did say that. That's what I thought he said. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying they do not bear the image of God. Only humans do. [00:14:15] Speaker A: He's going into it as if they could, but they also can't be fallen. [00:14:19] Speaker B: I don't know if he would even use. I don't know if he would use the phrase that they bear the image of God, but that they have a certain intellectual, spiritual, emotional capacity that would require that that's possible for them to be fallen and to be evangelized. Just. Just. That's just a wild. If you haven't. Have you ever. Have you ever read. What have you read, Lewis? Have you read. [00:14:43] Speaker A: I've read Mere Christianity, and I've read Screwtape Letters. [00:14:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:47] Speaker A: And Abolition of Man. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Or Aberration. How do you say that? Abolition. Right. [00:14:52] Speaker B: Abolition. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Abolition of Man. Those are pretty good. [00:14:54] Speaker B: Have you read Narnia? [00:14:55] Speaker A: Not really. I'm not a dude. I've watched Narnia. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Oh, I'm not a fan. No, you should. You should read the books, dude. You should read the books. Way better than the movies. [00:15:02] Speaker A: I'm out here reading, like, books like Chaos by Tom o'. Neill. Not. Not that stuff. [00:15:06] Speaker B: It'd be fun. He says Lewis suggested that it might be that, quote, redemption, starting with us, is to work from us and through us to the extraterrestrial beings. He continues, those who are or can become his sons are our real brothers, even if they have shells or tusks. It is spiritual, not biological, kinship that counts. [00:15:33] Speaker A: That's kind of crazy. I think he's a fantasy writer, so maybe he's just kind of, like, clinging on to that fantasy brain a little bit. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Does sound like something he would write in a fantasy brain. Listen dude, that's shells or tusks. [00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, what. What are you talking about here? I mean, it makes sense, but it's just. It's just interesting that he's saying that we might have to evangelize to these. To whatever it might be. Right. [00:15:52] Speaker B: That is weird. [00:15:53] Speaker A: The other theory that I have on that is just like, it's us from the future. That's the other. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah, you said that the other night. I don't. What does that mean? [00:15:59] Speaker A: It means that they might look different and they're different species, you know, but that would just be our different races or whatever. And then in the future, we have the capability to come back, you know, in time or just interdimensional travel, essentially. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Doesn't that. Doesn't that. Is that some sort of, like, biological evolutionary view? Well, we're evolving into something else that we're currently not. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that could be it. [00:16:24] Speaker B: I don't. [00:16:24] Speaker A: And I don't think there. I think there's room for that too, even. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Do you? [00:16:28] Speaker A: Well, there is room for, like, some evolvement of creatures in general. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:34] Speaker A: I don't mean that we came from monkeys. Evolution or whatever. That's not what I mean. But there's some adaptive stuff that happens. Like right now, you can see it in the way we are adapting by having less testosterone and. [00:16:47] Speaker B: Not you and I. Not you. [00:16:48] Speaker A: Not you and I. But like, in general, the population, because of certain factors that. That make that for us, that happen to us in that way. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:55] Speaker A: You. You go down the line even more. And is that called evolution? [00:16:59] Speaker B: I would. [00:16:59] Speaker A: I would call it to ourselves. [00:17:01] Speaker B: Micro evolution. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Okay, micro. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm misquoting the phrase. Micro evolution is like more of the adaptation piece. Macro evolution. Is this, like one species forming into another species kind of a thing. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Oh, I see what you're saying. A monkey, if it would be a different species, still like that in that regard, you know, like, they say they've seen blue creatures. I'm not sure how that would happen. Right. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:23] Speaker A: But at the same time, the way that things head, it might make sense in some degree that we end up in a position where. And this is very. Probably a little bit dark. Okay, so for the listener. Sorry. In a position where maybe we can't have kids anymore, or like, if that were to ever happen, I guess the world would kind of end anyway, or. Or, you know, you have the secular world trying to do something different, where they're like, we still have to keep living, you know, because that's the whole Thing. Right. They want to live forever, so they. They introduce something where it's like, no longer need kids. Now you've got. I'm just saying that there's. There's a possibility of something else being created, and then you're like, what is this? Yeah, obviously that's like, in some ways dystopian. Very dystopian. Could be considered demonic. And then also at the same time, what happens if it leads to people traveling, time traveling, or interdimensional travel? And that's what we're seeing, you know? [00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think I said this to you the other night. I don't think that's the case. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it was. One of the beauties of having the entirety of the Bible is that you do get, you know, the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel, Matthew, 24, 25, 24, 25, 24, I think. And these different places where we're explicitly told how things are going to end and the means by which we get there between now and that day, whenever that day is, we don't know. So who knows? [00:18:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:49] Speaker B: But I think in terms of some of these, like, major cataclysmic conclusions people are drawing about the end times, like, we. We should be able to, you know, open up our Bibles and say, is that consistent with what we see as to how the end is actually going to happen? [00:19:08] Speaker A: I mean, that's kind of comforting. [00:19:10] Speaker B: It should be super comforting. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's comforting. If you're thinking about my alternative, that's not true. [00:19:14] Speaker B: No, it's not true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I like the one day we'll preach the Revelation, but, like, Revelation is not intended to be a book of. Of, like, fear, Mon. Yeah, It's a book of comfort and like, to instill confidence within Christians because, you know, like, we know how the end is going to happen. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I did say it was a theory, for sure. Yeah, yeah, It's. I think that if you travel in that theory long enough, you're like, wait a second, you know? So I guess you're probably right that it's not. [00:19:40] Speaker B: It's not us from the future. Yeah, I don't think it's us from the future. Okay. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Wow. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Can I give you one more Lewis quote? [00:19:45] Speaker A: Dude, throw at me. [00:19:46] Speaker B: All right, so this. I don't know who this guy is who's interviewing him, but he says, do you think there will be widespread travel in space? [00:19:51] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. [00:19:53] Speaker B: So Lewis says, I look forward with horror to Contact with other inhabited planets, if there are such. We would only transport to them all of our sin and our acquisitiveness and establish a new colonialism. I can't bear to think of it. But if we on Earth were to get right with God, of course all would be changed. Once we find ourselves spiritually awakened, we can go to outer space and take the good things with us. That is quite a different matter, man. [00:20:24] Speaker A: That raises a question for me. Is that like all these other, these other inhabited planets, are they like, not fallen then? I mean, he said, you know what I mean? [00:20:33] Speaker B: Well, that's what he's asking. He's saying, he's saying that are they, are they fallen or not? Because if they're fallen, then they need the gospel to be redeemed. So it would be incumbent upon us to take the gospel to them, but we can't do that because all we're going to transport is our sins. We need to get right with God and then we need to take, you know. [00:20:50] Speaker A: But it made me think, like, that's like a really long winded way of saying, hey, you need to get saved. Which. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, Yeah. [00:20:56] Speaker A: I think it made me think of like, if we're going to these inhabited planets and taking our sin with us, does that mean they all. They don't have sin at these inhabited planets? You know what I mean? I'm saying, crazy. [00:21:04] Speaker B: I'm saying, no, they don't have sin because they're not made in the image of God. They don't need. They don't need to be. I mean, oh, man, I'm going to say something heretical probably. And then like, all, all of creation needs to be redeemed. Okay, so like the Earth needs to be redeemed. The Earth is affected and fractured by the fall because of sin. Animals need to be redeemed not because they sin individually in the same way humans do, but because they're a part of a fallen creation. So God is redeeming everything in the return of Jesus. I think what Lewis is getting at is do these, you know, these extraterrestrial beings, if they do exist, do they have a fallen sin nature that needs to be redeemed through the gospel? [00:21:53] Speaker A: Okay, so then that, I'm saying, I'm saying, no, no, they don't. They can't because we're the ones that are fallen. [00:21:58] Speaker B: We're the only matrix. [00:21:59] Speaker A: They would be. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker A: The ones that are like instinct driven or whatever. Program. Yeah. Designed in that case. Then that means that in my head I'm thinking Because of that, if you're right, they could be intelligent and they could have reason. They just can't be fallen in the image of God. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah, they. Yes. So his, like, spiritual sense. [00:22:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Piece. Right. Where. Where there is a. [00:22:22] Speaker A: But if they're not sinful, they don't need the spiritual sense, I guess. [00:22:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:25] Speaker A: So then that means that does leave room for actual intellectual beings that can do things. Maybe more reason and all that stuff. [00:22:34] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Anyway, maybe. Whatever. That's crazy. [00:22:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:36] Speaker A: That's wild. [00:22:37] Speaker B: I doubt it. But. I doubt it. But maybe I still. Here, here's. Here's my. I'll bottom line my position again. I doubt it. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:44] Speaker B: If there is anything, it's probably demonic stuff. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:48] Speaker B: But I have space for it. [00:22:50] Speaker A: Nice. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Because the Bible isn't clear on it. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Nice. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:53] Speaker A: Good old Brad coming in with the nuance. That's good. That's good. That's good. That makes sense. I. Yeah, I can. I can get on board with that. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:00] Speaker A: It's better than just saying no way. You know, I think it's scary. [00:23:04] Speaker B: I think it's scary for a lot of people, but all the stuff coming out. I will say this to our people if, you know, for the redemption healers who are listening, but anybody else, you shouldn't be scared of this. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Redemption healers. [00:23:14] Speaker B: Yes. Redemption hills. You shouldn't be scared. So I read some stuff about the government called in a group of pastors to have a private meeting to tell them that they're going to disclose all this stuff about aliens so that they can go back and tell their people to be prepared because they were afraid that Christians were going to walk away from the faith if all this stuff happened. Baloney, man. First of all, I doubt that meeting actually happened. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Got him. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Second of all, even if it did happen, and again, there's stuff that we don't know that the government knows that they're going to disclose. Like that in no way should rattle your faith because it doesn't rattle the Bible. [00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And do you think they would even tell you? Like, I mean, come on, guys. We still don't know who shot jfk. You know, what are they going to tell you? The truth? [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Anyway. All right. My whole thing on that. [00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:01] Speaker A: You asked me my favorite book earlier, and that's why I brought up Chaos. It's one of my favorite books. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Nice. Who wrote it? [00:24:06] Speaker A: Tom o'. Neill. Yeah, right. Yeah. He is a reporter that covered the Charles Manson murders. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Is that what it was about? [00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah, dude, it's pretty wild. And he like, like 20 plus years of his life. Several jobs later, he's like, yeah, this article that I was supposed to write turned into a book. [00:24:23] Speaker B: Oh. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Because it was so. He's like. Because it was. There was too much to follow and get it, get it like nailed down. And he's like, anyway, it's a crazy book. [00:24:32] Speaker B: What's the. What's the. Can you give us the premise for those of us who probably will never read it? [00:24:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I can. I think that you just have to. How do I give a disclaimer on this? [00:24:44] Speaker B: Can you give us the G rated version of. Yeah. About Charles Manson? [00:24:47] Speaker A: I mean, it basically it gives you the line, the connections between the CIA and Charles Manson murders and how those are linked and he was evidence that it's linked. Not even just that, just the link that CIA was involved in some way and either knew it was going on. So complicit or planned. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:25:09] Speaker A: And that's, you know, like I said, disclaimer, I guess, for. It's conspiratorial in some way. Yeah. But there's like a lot of the book is like based on the evidence, so it's like, oh, wow. It's pretty crazy. [00:25:19] Speaker B: Crazy. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Anyways, my other favorite books are business books, so. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:25] Speaker A: How to Win Friends and Influence People. [00:25:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:25:27] Speaker A: Great. [00:25:27] Speaker B: Classic. Had a classic. [00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the 48 laws of power. I, you know, I wouldn't recommend it. It's a good book, I guess. But under the knowing that we're Christian and more believers, it changes the perspective of the book, you know, because it's a very secular driven book. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Have you ever read Leadership on the Line? Have I told you about that one? [00:25:47] Speaker A: You have. You actually gave me that book. That's a great first met. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:51] Speaker A: You're like, this is it, dude. You got to read it. I read a chapter, I think. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:54] Speaker A: I'm just. Dude, I can't read. I physically, I can read. I shouldn't say that. I'm not illiterate, but like, you know, reading a physical copy is just so hard. [00:26:03] Speaker B: It is hard. Yeah. People. People hate change because they hate loss. It's like the premise of that book. Yeah, it was really helpful. [00:26:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:11] Speaker B: He says something like, oh, man, what's the quote? Leadership. Leadership is dangerous because it requires you to call people to change and they hate change because they hate loss. And so a good leader will. What does he say? He says a good leader will lead people to change at a rate that they can absorb. So we're always calling people to change. [00:26:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Just like there's really good parallels with pastoral ministry and you have to like [00:26:38] Speaker A: go at their pace. [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah. You gotta, you can't just hit him with a sledgehammer. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a lot of parallels to being a personal trainer in that, you know, because you're walking with somebody through something they otherwise may not change, you know, that's really hard. For sure. Good book though. For sure. The one chapter I read, Narnia, man. Dude, what is that? Why, why is every, why is it like. [00:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's stereotype, but it's like the, the Christian darling. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Dude, what is that? [00:27:05] Speaker B: It's just really good, dude. I, I, I felt that way before I read it. Like I was like, I don't want to do this. I mean, I, like, I, I didn't grow up in the church, so like I, I'm like way behind on all of the Christian stuff in a lot of ways. [00:27:18] Speaker A: Sure. [00:27:18] Speaker B: Still Christian stuff. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Christian culture, I guess. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Christian culture stuff. Yeah. And, but my kids, we read through it with our kids and I was like, this is incredible, man. He's a really good writer. He's really good at imagery. So even if you're not like a big reader type, like, I, I'm, I'm very like ADHD brained, so it's hard for me to pay attention. And like business books are super boring to me. I just like, it's no offense, man. [00:27:47] Speaker A: No, it's just crazy that. [00:27:49] Speaker B: But now that I know you love them, I can just vicariously live through you. You read them, tell me what they say and we'll, that'll be good. [00:27:56] Speaker A: Why do you think Narnia. Before I get to my response on that, why do you think I watched Narnia? What's your defense? Or what's your argument for me to go back and read it? [00:28:05] Speaker B: I don't. The movies weren't good. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:28:11] Speaker B: They should do a good job. The first one was fine. Yeah, the first one was fine. The second, third were not as good. They're not bad. Yeah, but I think compared. People always say that, right? Like the movie's bad compared to the book, minus the Lord of the Rings. Well, Lord of the Rings movies are awesome. [00:28:30] Speaker A: They're amazing. Well, Harry Potter's movies are pretty good. [00:28:32] Speaker B: I never saw them. Any of them. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Oh. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Not because I'm against it. [00:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:36] Speaker B: I just never. I miss the Harry Potter train. [00:28:38] Speaker A: I might be saying this wrong. I think Josh wrote read Harry Potter. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Really? [00:28:42] Speaker A: He didn't. Someone that I didn't expect read all the books I was like what? Anyway, that is funny. [00:28:47] Speaker B: But the books are great, man. And they're really small. They're easy to read. Here's my, like, pastoral plug for you. I think Lewis wrote better on heaven than any other author I've read outside of the Bible. Randy Alcorn, who wrote a book called Heaven, which I would strongly recommend to any Christian in order to kind of build in that comfort and confidence we talked about for life and just to get you stoked about what's to come when Jesus comes back, took a lot of his stuff from Lewis through Narnia or from Narnia. So the way, you know, Narnia is, obviously, it's symbolic of heaven, but the way that he describes it, man, is just like, I finished the book and I was like, not like, I'm excited to die. I'm not. But the excitement for eternal life on the new Earth with Jesus became much more vivid and real and exciting to me after reading Narnia. [00:29:46] Speaker A: You know, that's a good. That's a good point. I think that same kind of realization happened for me at Paradox when we were going through revelation. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Because I had no idea this is going to sound. I'm not a new Christian, but I didn't realize that when they're talking about a new heaven and a new earth, you know, the new earth comes down or whatever kind of thing. It didn't. It didn't ever register for me that it's like Narnia. Like, it didn't ever register for me that it's like you're in paradise. But, like, maybe it's the same. I don't know. Maybe it looks the same. I don't know. You always think of heaven as, like, growing up as, like, this just white space. [00:30:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:24] Speaker A: And that's literally what I. I'm not even kidding. Like, until, like, what, five years ago, I was like, oh, it's not that. [00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and it's not only is that not enticing, it's terrifying. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Right. Because why am I stuck here? [00:30:37] Speaker B: Well, it's. It's unlike Matrix. It's unlike anything that we've ever experienced in actual life. [00:30:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:42] Speaker B: So, like, if heaven is disembodied and only spiritual and there's no physicality to it, then of course you're not going to look forward to that. You're going to dread that. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:50] Speaker B: Because you weren't. Because you weren't made to live that way. You weren't made to be disembodied. [00:30:53] Speaker A: So it makes sense that Narnia really throws that. [00:30:56] Speaker B: It hits. It hits the physical aspect of it really well, man. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Maybe he talks about, like, what the blades of grass feel like under your feet on the earth. Right. You know, stuff like that. That's just. It's just. It really. It. I don't know, man. It like, fuels the imagination. [00:31:10] Speaker A: Sure. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And then you'll. Your work will feel like the greatest thing in the world, you know? [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Whatever. That ends up looking like. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Relationships are better. It's. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah. That's crazy. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Y. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Okay. Wow. Yeah. The. The question we had today is more about. It's actually about kind of your sermons that you're going through right now or were. Because we cut. Did we cut like, halfway through the. The fear of God? No, but you're trying to, like, you're kind of talking about fear of God, worldly versus believer. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:42] Speaker A: Given those. Anyway, the question would be that we got. Was based around that, but it was more about. So first, I guess how would you explain that to a non believer, like in a regular conversation without. I guess maybe you do say this, but without outright saying, like, hey, you know, you're going to experience the wrath of God. You're experienced the wrath of God if you don't do this type thing. Right. So the. What do they call that? The fire and brimstone. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Preacher type. You know, lingo. If you're using that. It's basically, how do we do it? Well, say that to people. And then also, could you kind of maybe elaborate or explain it just on this podcast too? I guess there's not really a definitional difference. Maybe there is between what is fear before you're a believer and like, just worldly fear compared to the Christian fear of God. Like, you know, what. What's that look like, the differences, that kind of thing? [00:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah, man, that's a really good question. So I would say, and I think I've said this from the stage, but just to maybe begin with kind of two major categories of dread and delight. Okay. So the fear of God as a non believer is a fear of dread. Right. Or if you're kind of driven by dread, not of dread, but driven by dread. And the fear of God for the believer is fueled by delight. Like, there's just a. So I think the. The question then becomes, like, why are they. What's the difference? Like, how does. How does one go from a dreadful fear to a delightful. A delightful fear, if we can say that. So. And then you asked about the. Like, how do you explain it to somebody who's not yet a Christian. Like, you're right. I would not just come in again, like a sledgehammer and say, like, you know, you're under the wrath of God. You're going, you need to repent right now kind of a thing. Because I have friends who are not yet Christians and we don't. I don't talk that way to them. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:43] Speaker B: If it ever, if the conversation got like, led there, obviously, like, I wouldn't shy away from saying what's true. Like, and I think if, you know, if you watch Wes Huff, I think he does a really good job when he's on different platforms of explaining this to guys. And so, but, but to answer prior to getting to like the, you know, how do we actually talk about it with other people? I would say that, yes, that the, the fear of God for the non believer, for the non Christian is driven by dread. Because, because the non Christian is according to Jesus, in John chapter three, he is already condemned. Okay? So like, when we are born into the world, we are born in Adam. Who's our. We would call him our. It's kind of a fancy word, but like our covenantal head. Okay? So the whole world really is. We get all caught up in like, conversations around race and ethnicity and things like that. And those aren't irrelevant. But as a Christian, we have to view the world as categorized. Like, people are categorized in two camps. You're either in Adam or you're in Christ. Okay? And both of those categories of people are multi generational, multi ethnic, et cetera. But we're all born into the world in Adam. And being born in Adam means that we're born estranged from God. God is our enemy. Like, we are God's enemy. And because we're God's enemy, we're God's enemy because he's good and because we are sinful. The fear then ought to be a fear of righteous judgment. Like, we're going to face the judge one day. So every human who lives and dies will come face to face with God as judge. And when we read the Bible and we, we read how the Bible describes who God is, and I, you know, Isaiah 6 is a good reference point for those who want to actually look at it. But the scene that you get in Isaiah 6 where Isaiah actually, he's either transported to heaven or again, like the, the unseen realm is kind of like the layers pulled back for him to see. Jesus is sitting on a throne. And it's, it's such a, it's such a glorious scene that the angels who are themselves good. Okay, so Isaiah is a sinful human. So it's one thing for a sinful human not to be able to look upon the perfection of who God is. Right. But the angels who are good, who have no sin in them, cannot even look upon God. He's. He's so. He's so otherworldly. Good. We can't. Our brains would break if we fully understood it. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Okay. So like, if the angels can't look upon him because of his purity and goodness and perfection, then that ought to elicit fear in us. Right. It's not a fear of. Of somebody terrible. So I think oftentimes we think. We think that way. We're like. Well, we think about times that we've been afraid of things that have happened to us, like somebody has abused us or, you know, whatever. Whatever the case is, and we associate terror with somebody bad. This isn't that. This is fear and it's dread, but it's because of the otherworldly goodness of God and the confrontation that happens whenever we come face to face with him in light of our badness. So does all that make sense? [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. So far it does. Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker B: So that's the non Christian. That's. Those who are in Adam before a holy God have no covering. And we need covering. We can't approach him without it. So the gospel is wonderful news because the Gospel provides that covering, the righteousness that we need to stand before that holy God and not just view him as judge, but as Father. As a loving Father happens in Christ. So because of what God the Father did, so that judge is not just a judge, he is eternally Father. So for all of eternity, God has existed both as judge and as father. Father is who he is, judges what he does. So he as a father, sends God the Son, second member of the Trinity, to take on human flesh. As Jesus lived the perfect life that we could not live, die on the cross for our sins, rise from the grave, ascend to heaven, where he now intercedes on behalf of all who put their faith in him. So we're transported, as it were, from being in Adam to being in Christ. That's our position now. And so because we're in Christ, we're covered with Christ. And because we're covered with Christ, we can go back to the scene of Isaiah 6 and we can come before that throne where the angels can't even look with their bare eyes. We can come before that throne with what Hebrews 10 says is confidence and assurance because we're covered. We're in Christ. So Christ's righteousness is our righteousness. And now we can look upon God as loving, gracious, gentle, merciful father. And so that kind of fear is driven by delight. So I'll give one more illustration that I'll be done. Michael Reeves, who's a. A British theologian pastor, says it's kind of like the difference between a soldier who's in a foxhole and he's getting shot at. And while he's in the foxhole, he's hiding in, the bullets are whizzing over his head and he's terrified. Right. Like, that's one kind of fear. Another kind of fear is when the husband on his wedding day, at his wedding ceremony, is waiting for his bride to come down the aisle and the music starts and the bride and her father come down and they lock eyes for the first time. And I remember this from my own wedding day. There's an actual trembling that can take place in the husband during that moment. And he's not trembling because he's terrified of his wife. He's trembling because of delight. He's so delighted to be with the object of his affection that his body is responding to it. That's the fear of the Lord for the Christian. [00:40:00] Speaker A: So that's a lot illustration. Sounds good. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yep. [00:40:04] Speaker A: That was good. Wow. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Does that make. Does that make sense? [00:40:07] Speaker A: No, it totally makes sense. Yeah. I think, you know, I think. I think she was confused a little bit. I think, because maybe it hasn't. She hasn't heard it directly said in a way. Like, for the non Christian, it's this. For the Christian, it's this. So maybe that was kind of confusing as well. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:29] Speaker A: And I think. I don't know. I think it's just trying to, like, navigate how someone's going to perceive you. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:39] Speaker A: And also some of that can come from, like, being afraid of what they're going to think, you know, whenever you're talking to them. You know, the fear of the Lord [00:40:48] Speaker B: and in scripture is always talked about as a positive thing. Like, it's, you know, it is. It is the thing that. This is. Ed Welch. It is the thing that drives out the fear of everything else. So, you know, we become more courageous in life and stop being so terrified of everything else when we grow in the fear of the Lord. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And that. And giving that. Giving it as like a comparison like that, where it's like, so you drive out all the fear of man or all the fear of what's next or what could happen to me because God's behind you. That's kind of. It's interesting, I think. Yeah. I think that's just. It's obviously somewhat hard to comprehend, especially when you first become a Christian or really anytime, because it's like you're still talking about something that's. It's fear. And there's a definition for it. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Negative connotation. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Negative connotation, obviously, and not even used in the same respect at all. Do you know where that is? Fear? Like the direct translation. What is it called in. In Greek or Hebrew or wherever it comes from? [00:41:51] Speaker B: That's a good question. I anticipate that it's fear. Some people say it's reverence or awe. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:56] Speaker B: Which. I think you could use those words, but. But I don't think you want to villainize fear. I think you. You know, we talked about the storm. Have you been able to step outside and notice a storm? [00:42:06] Speaker A: Well, I always. I always open doors and windows when storms happen. Yeah, I love storms, dude. [00:42:11] Speaker B: Me, too. [00:42:12] Speaker A: I'm the same way as you. Like, let's go out and, you know, smoke a cigar. I don't know if you say that, but, you know, on the porch. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Just chilling, you know, watching this cup of coffee. [00:42:18] Speaker B: Oh, so good. Dude, it was coffee. [00:42:20] Speaker A: It wasn't a cigar. [00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's all right. Cigars are fine. Just kidding. Just kidding. But no, man, I think, you know, stepping outside and being able to enjoy a thunderstorm while contemplating the fear of the Lord would be a really good idea for anybody. And, you know, Spurgeon would say, I love to hear the voice of my father in the storm. So when the thunder roles, as Garth Brooks would say, you get to. You get. You get to just imagine the source of the thunder. Right, right. And the lightning and the majesty of that moment. And that God who's that big is your father. And that's where the delight comes in. [00:43:05] Speaker A: This is gonna be so random, but have you ever seen under the Tuscan Sun? [00:43:09] Speaker B: No, I've heard. I've heard of them. [00:43:11] Speaker A: Calm kind of thing. You know, Obviously, I don't know why we're both men, but, you know. No, it was funny. Lizzie want. Wanted to watch it, so we were watching it or whatever. I was kind of half watching. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:22] Speaker A: But there's a storm that happens, and she's, like, freaking out, and I couldn't understand it. [00:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:27] Speaker A: So funny because, like, I love storms. [00:43:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:29] Speaker A: So what is she doing? Why does she care that much? [00:43:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Because she was alone. I don't know. Yeah, Lizzie's like. [00:43:33] Speaker B: She's Alone. [00:43:34] Speaker A: It's scary, you know? And I'm like, man, I don't know. So it brought me to the thought that you had already brought up where you're like, can you just sit in the storm, you know, and be okay? You know? [00:43:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:44] Speaker A: I don't know. It just surprises me. Maybe I shouldn't say it that way. I have empathy, but at the same time, I'm like, you know, practically. It's already rare that something happens when a storm is happening, you know? [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's. It's not bad to be scared in a storm, right? Like, my kids get scared in the storm. I mean, there are times that it rattles me, man, if like a, you know, huge peel of thunder just, like, cracks the. What feels like the foundations of the house. You're like, wow. But it's, again, the fear of the Lord as we're talking about it. If you really want to maybe, like, I don't know, experiment with it, cultivate it. The next time that happens, just remind yourself of the source of that experience. Like, so the storm is really big. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:34] Speaker B: And it's really majestic and powerful, and there's a God behind it who's even more so. Right. So, like, that's. Again, that's just. Those are little practical opportunities. Actually, people texting me after that Sunday that. That I preached that sermon when it started to storm, people typed me, like, hey, man, I'm outside listening. [00:44:50] Speaker A: That's funny, dude. [00:44:51] Speaker B: That's awesome. I don't think that's ever happened. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker B: With an illustration. So that's. [00:44:56] Speaker A: That's awesome because it happened right. Right after, and it was fresh on our minds and, like, you were like, it's gonna storm this week. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:01] Speaker A: It hadn't yet, but it did. [00:45:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:03] Speaker A: You know, not saying you're a prophet or. [00:45:05] Speaker B: I'm not. No. I just watched the news, that's all. [00:45:07] Speaker A: I'm kidding. [00:45:07] Speaker B: I just watched the news. [00:45:08] Speaker A: I recorded a little snippet. Maybe. Maybe Jess will use that. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I think I kind of want to go deeper on that because here's the thing. I think that you can look at that as an. As a non believer, and I think you might ask, what about this can just kind of move naturally into another question that happens from this, and it's harder to answer, I think. [00:45:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:45:38] Speaker A: I don't want to give a real example because that would just be. There's tragedy, tragedies that happen from. Maybe it's from a storm or a natural occurrence or whatever. And a bad thing would happen to a good person. How do you maintain a fear of God in that? Let's say someone dies from something tragic like a flood or whatever or a storm. They die from a storm. And because something happened. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:08] Speaker A: And God is powerful and omnipotent. And. Omnipotent. Omnipotent. Omnipotent. I can't say that. That. Well, anyway. And he controls all of that. Well, how do, how do we, how do we explain that? [00:46:21] Speaker B: Man? That's a. That is a super good, difficult question. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Like, so does it relate to the fear of God? I think. I kind of think it does. [00:46:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So. I think so. So, like, the. I'll play the. I'll play the person on the side of, you know, something has happened to my child. Right, okay. Like the, the flood that happened in Texas. [00:46:41] Speaker A: That's what I was gonna, I was gonna mention that because it was an. It was an example, but horrific. [00:46:45] Speaker B: Dude. [00:46:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:45] Speaker B: I can't. I mean, I, I can't even, like, as a parent, I can't. I just. You can't even fathom. You can't fathom that. So, like, where was God in that? Right. Yeah. And. And, like, how would you be able [00:46:58] Speaker A: to explain that God is still there? [00:46:59] Speaker B: If God is the God who is the source of the storm, how do you explain his goodness? Even in that, that. Right. Yeah, dude. I, I, man, I don't know that I have an answer for that at the moment. I mean, I think that it's one of those. So pastorally, and even. Not even pastorally, but just as a Christian with another Christian, I think you should not try to explain where you think God was in that you should just weep with the people that weep, which we talked about on Sunday. We did a little bit that, you know, the. When the proverbs talk about the fool and the wise person, not just the proverbs, but James, specifically James 1, says in his chapter, Chapter 1, where he talks about wisdom, he says, be quick to listen and slow to speak and slow to become angry. The wisdom from heaven is both pure, peaceable, gentle, and open to reason. And so, man, in moments of tragedy, you can uphold a good big God theology of God is in control of everything, even things in life that seem horrific on the surface that we cannot explain. And as a, as one Christian to another human, whether they're a Christian or not, I think our job as Christians is to weep with those who weep, not explain everything, because I don't think those things can be explained. I think, I think at some point down the line. You know, those are. It's always good at some point to be reminded of what's true and all of that. But. And here's like, for. For many, many Christians who suffer tremendous and tragic loss like that, Something like that. Like, we know that God is sovereign. We know that he's working everything out for our good. We know that Jesus is alive, we know he's coming back, all of those kinds of things. But it doesn't mean it's helpful to hear those things in a moment of tragedy. What we. What people need is just another human to come alongside and cry with them. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:02] Speaker B: And be there for them and be a good friend to them and serve them and just sit and listen and not say a whole lot of anything. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, similar to how you wouldn't just point blank tell someone you're gonna experience the wrath of God if you don't, you know, repent and believe or whatever, you know? So, like, I think that makes sense. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah. It's tough. It's tough one for sure, man. All right. I think that was good. [00:49:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:28] Speaker A: It feels lonely here without Sean. [00:49:31] Speaker B: How long do we go? [00:49:32] Speaker A: We're at. I mean, we're at almost an hour. Yeah. Wow. All right. [00:49:35] Speaker B: We're going by fast, dude. [00:49:36] Speaker A: I mean, it was good. Yeah, we were chit chatting it up, you know. Anyway, hope you guys enjoyed this, and if you didn't, we don't want to know about it. So we will talk to you guys later.