How do you walk with someone who is going through deconstruction? | Asking for a Neighbor

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:01] Speaker B: Why did older generations seem to live longer than we're living today and care nothing about any of this stuff? [00:00:13] Speaker A: Is that true, though? [00:00:14] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:00:14] Speaker A: Have they. [00:00:15] Speaker B: I feel, I feel like it's true. I'm. I'm like my grandfather in law is. Is. I think he's 90. [00:00:21] Speaker A: He's. [00:00:21] Speaker B: He's crouching. 90. Yeah. He's got early stage Alzheimer's. But like he, I mean, do they. You know, I think Coca Cola his whole life. [00:00:29] Speaker C: And that's one individual. I recently, for the first time in a long time, I don't remember how recent, the last few years. I feel like the average age is either male or female or maybe both. For the first time in decades. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Went down recently. [00:00:44] Speaker C: I heard about it within the last few years. [00:00:46] Speaker B: So we're dying. Dying earlier now. [00:00:48] Speaker C: I don't know if we are right this moment. Because that data changes. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. But it happens recently. That's why I asked you it was recent because I don't think. [00:00:54] Speaker B: I guess I'm just like. So this is totally my, this is my. I don't, I don't like all the AI stuff. That's no surprise. Okay, but, but you know, to me, I'm like, man, is. Is the overexposure to information all the time, every waking moment of the day killing us Compared to previous generations who had none of that stuff, they were outside more. They. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you this. How do you think it would kill you? What's the way? What's the method? [00:01:22] Speaker B: I don't know. You tell me. [00:01:24] Speaker A: You think stress, it's anxiety? [00:01:26] Speaker B: Yes, certainly. Yeah, certainly stress, for sure. [00:01:28] Speaker A: So you think it's like, it's a compounding effect. [00:01:30] Speaker B: It's like I heard one guy say, and I was like, yeah, totally. That we're lit. Everybody is in ptsd. Like we're all being exposed to things that were only exposed to people in war several decades ago. But we're seeing these images all the time. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, right. But that was also like when they first started recognizing it as even a thing in general. Right. Like it wasn't like a diagnosis they would get before that. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm not, I'm not even saying PTSD kills you. I don't know anything about that. [00:01:56] Speaker A: But I mean, it probably does. Something has some effect, right? [00:01:58] Speaker B: Stress does. [00:01:59] Speaker C: That takes. That makes PTSD something that just doesn't exist. If you say something like that. There you go. [00:02:04] Speaker A: There you go. [00:02:04] Speaker C: Because if everyone waters it down like it. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:06] Speaker C: I don't have ptsd. [00:02:08] Speaker A: It's not him saying that, by the way. [00:02:09] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I know. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Brad's not saying for the record. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Well, of course, yeah, yeah, for the record. No, what I'm saying is that if people that say things like that, it's like, okay, well, then somebody that actually has ptsd, that like, is experiencing stuff, like, I'm desensitized to things that people wouldn't have been desensitized to maybe before. [00:02:30] Speaker B: I think that's the point he was making. He wasn't saying everybody is clinically diagnosed. Everybody would be clinically diagnosed with ptsd. He's saying the, the effects of ptsd, this desensitization, whatever, to violent images and videos and, you know, things like that are. That. That is worldwide in a way that it's never been in history. [00:02:50] Speaker C: But historically, people were exposed more to death and sickness and illness in actual reality than we are today. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:59] Speaker C: So you could make the same. [00:03:00] Speaker B: But not. But not every waking second of the day. I mean, you can be on your phone doom scrolling 24 hours a day. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Well, I just think there's not enough. There's not enough data we have from the historical times when people literally had to like, make it across a 50 mile trip trek to like build a house and all 50 of them, or. And there's 50 of them. Whatever, all 50 of them die or one's left or whatever. Like, we don't have the data for that. Yeah, like they had ptsd. Are you kidding me? [00:03:25] Speaker C: We need to start this podcast. [00:03:27] Speaker A: It's. [00:03:28] Speaker C: Are you already recording? [00:03:29] Speaker B: It's. [00:03:29] Speaker A: It's already like. [00:03:30] Speaker C: Oh, are you really? [00:03:31] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's. I mean, I just think it's. It's obvious that. Okay, well, if we don't have that data, they would also have problems. Do you think, do you think like the problems have just like appeared out of nowhere? No. Right. [00:03:43] Speaker B: No, I don't think they've appeared. I think. Let me see if I can write my brain around this. And I know we got to get to the content. They knew how to do more stuff than we do. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:51] Speaker B: They were building things. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Not to say nobody's building anything anymore. We are building things. [00:03:56] Speaker C: Sure. [00:03:56] Speaker B: But we do have a whole. We have a lot of technology that does a lot of thinking for us. [00:04:01] Speaker A: I see. [00:04:02] Speaker B: So I don't think we think as critically as generations past used to think. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:05] Speaker B: About things. That's it. That's an overgeneralization. Like in some ways I think we do, et cetera. But so, yeah, I just think that There were human skill sets that were more prevalent, more at use, you know, et cetera, back in the day than maybe. [00:04:25] Speaker C: I'm gonna play devil's advocate a little bit here. Push, push back. Not in a way that I don't agree with the general sentiment because of course that that is the case. People doom scrolling and spending too much time on their stuff. But the reality is we in a different way, I'm just saying looking at it from a different angle, we have more time to think about things than anybody in history because technology has allowed us to not have to work for our food. We work, but we're not spending all of our days trying to figure out how to just sustain life, which historically that's not all of history, but I'm saying the majority of history. So we actually have more time to think about things than people in the past, generally speaking. Now do we utilize that time to think deeply about things? [00:05:14] Speaker B: That's what I was going to say. [00:05:15] Speaker C: That's the question. [00:05:16] Speaker B: That's the intended purpose is for that to happen. [00:05:18] Speaker C: But there can be a tendency, and I'm just, and I put myself in this camp as well, to think of these kind of things as mostly negative, which I don't think that these technologies are mostly negative. I think they can be used in a very unhealthy way. I would even put AI in that category. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Are you sure this is devil's advocate? Sounds like you're in it, you're on it. You're like, I believe this. Well, I agree with you actually. [00:05:41] Speaker C: But I'm saying that the issue is not the technology. And I know you wouldn't say that either. Like the issue is not primarily the technology. But I do think we can think of it in terms of like, oh, things would be so much better if we could go back to this point. Or we can have that kind of sentiment that things are worse now than they were before, when in reality we're just utilizing the technology that's available to us, that in God's providence is available. And people, including ourselves, twist that to our own purposes at times, which is what people have been doing for all history. I'm saying that I think we can utilize the technology to do the opposite of what you're saying. That the tendency is we can use technology to help us think more deeply and to help people more in a variety of ways. But the dangers, I think that's the thing that is there. But I think what I'm saying is that I feel like that can be turned to that the technology itself Even if that's not what, what people are saying, that tends to be the problem. Like having too much news is the problem. I don't know if that is the problem. [00:06:54] Speaker B: It's not the problem. I think it is a problem. [00:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. [00:06:58] Speaker B: The news cycle plays off of what they know is dopamine release and the people that are watching it. That's why they do a 24 hour news cycle and it's all negative. You don't hear positive news stories coming out of Fox News or MSNBC or whatever. It's always bad because I know people click on that and they watch it repetitively. [00:07:14] Speaker C: And that's true. But I'm just saying, even in the way that you're articulating that, it's as if the news is bad. It's as if having these things is bad. And it's not the case. The issue is people letting them take advantage of them. And you have the algorithms, we're aware of that. Those things are bad in the sense when they're used to manipulate people for nefarious means. Totally agree with that. Like, like chill. Okay, we're about to start talking about gambling here in a second. Algorithms that encourage children to get involved in gambling. That is a nefarious, wicked thing. That, that does not have any redeeming qualities. Yeah, but just generally the fact that we have news and that, yeah, most of the news is negative because they know that that's what drives viewers. Like that may be the case. [00:08:06] Speaker A: So I can give you, I can give you a good example of information right now. So like, because you were inundated with it, it's too much, right? That's, that's what you're saying. And I think that for, to some degree that might be true. There's other things that play into like how we are falling as a society. I would say so there's like, there's a lot of things, varying things, and I can't pinpoint one thing and say it's AI, it's technology, it's news, it's whatever. But with all that said, one good thing that's happening from information is our ability to have the information so fast has made it better for us to be able to, I don't know, vote or react or know what's going on for our own lives. That helps. And that's the good side of news, right? Yeah, we want that. I will say, like, there is one dude who's responsible for the news the way it is now, and I can't remember the time period I think it was like 1930s, but it was in San Francisco. And he literally created the. [00:09:03] Speaker C: The. [00:09:03] Speaker A: What do you call that? Like the. If it leads, it bleeds. It came from him. That phrase came from him. And he, like. He basically wanted to like, make creative writing and news. He put them together right before that. It was just straight news. There were no headlines. Like, all the copy was the same. So he basically just paved the way for this whole new media style, which is, in his mind isn't a bad thing. Right. He just wanted to create something new like that. However it has been used wrong. Well, this is like the technology argument that you have, Sean, where it's good things that we can create. But. Yeah, and I know sin will always. [00:09:41] Speaker C: And Brad, you'll agree with that as like, technology obviously can be used. Totally. It's not. That's not the. That's not the discussion we're having really. But I do like what you said, sky, because I think that the way that. That I'm trying to reframe myself because I do tend to have more of a critical or negative bent, which I think is good on some of these things to an extent. But the fact that it's on a positive way of looking at it is that this is where the Lord has us in the 21st century. This is not by accident. The technology that we have and the technological revolutions that have taken place in the last few hundred years, this is part of God's providence. And we clearly, the majority of these things we're talking about aren't inherently evil or bad. They can be used for evil or bad. So what I'm saying is we as Christians particularly need to be very much aware of the way that they can be used negatively, which is part of the conversation here. How these things can be manipulated by people for gain that isn't helpful for society. At the same time, these are things that can be utilized for the good of. Of society, for the good of people, and for all of the opposite things that are part of the concern. So, yes, people don't think as deeply because they're scrolling and they get infatuated with their phone. At the same time, the technology we have does have the ability to help us think more deeply because we have access to information like we've never had before. So I think it's more about the wisdom of engaging the technology. And then maybe this is a segue into the gambling conversation. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Brad, Sorry, we just blasted your little. Your question there. Your question was good. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. [00:11:28] Speaker C: Did we even get the question? [00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah, we did. Hold on, hold on. But I have a question for you. What do you do in that situation? Like, you're saying, if it is the case that technology is this way, whose job is it to fix that? [00:11:42] Speaker B: Oh, man, I don't know. And to be clear, again, for the record, I don't think technology is bad. I think it's all within the categories of, you know, as elders. Sometimes we talk about the. This is an old Acts 29 thing, but what is it? Receive, reject, redeem. So there are certain things that need to be rejected, certain things that need to be received, and then lots and lots of things in the world that can and should be redeemed. [00:12:05] Speaker C: Like, so this redeemed, meaning that they're neutral and they're neutral in morality. [00:12:11] Speaker B: There's no, like, negative moral connotation to the thing. Right. Like, I think that's true about AI. I think it's true about, like, all this stuff. I don't like a lot of it personally, but, like. But that doesn't mean I think it's bad. I don't think it's bad. Yeah, you asked who do I think ought to fix it? [00:12:27] Speaker A: Not. Not even really who. [00:12:28] Speaker B: I think how. I think how this. It is a different conversation for a different day. But it does seem to me, at least the little that I've listened to or read, that like a lot of the guys who are at the forefront of this, you know, all of the advancements within AI are sounding the alarm that we're going too far too fast. Is that not true? [00:12:47] Speaker A: That is true. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Elon Musk not saying that. [00:12:49] Speaker A: Yes. I think all of them are. They would argue to play devil's advocate, they would argue it's because there are other national. More nefarious. Well, what we would say more nefarious. National governments doing the exact same thing. So how do we keep up? Yeah, I don't know if that's a good argument. I actually don't even like that argument. I think it. I think we're actually. This is even another conversation. I think we're taught the wrong thing growing up, that America's number one and we're the best and we're good guys and China and Russia are bad guys. I don't think that's true. I just fail to believe that there as. [00:13:25] Speaker C: We're going down a different track here [00:13:27] Speaker A: than I was envisioning bad as everyone thinks they are. So when the government tells you we got to keep up with them. Not sure that I agree with that. [00:13:35] Speaker C: I would disagree with that. [00:13:36] Speaker A: I Think there's some degree that we have to. I think there's some degree that we have to. [00:13:41] Speaker B: We should do a. We should do. I don't know if that's a whole podcast. Does anybody at RHC even care about these things? I don't know. [00:13:47] Speaker A: They might do. [00:13:47] Speaker B: Sorry, listener. Sorry, listener for. Yeah, so again, I just, you know, abundantly clear. I agree with all of what you guys are saying in regards to it. I think my concerns more lie. One, as a parent, which I know we're gonna get to that in the gambling when we actually finally do get to the content. But two is, you know, I just. I don't think that our, you know, depraved human nature, apart from the grace of God on our own is going to typically take something so powerful and. And it end up being a net positive for the world. I just don't buy it yet. Yeah, so. But I do think, like, man, I read something the other day about. About AI used in the medical field and how it's just like, it's totally accelerated all sorts of things that doctors and nurses can do. Like. That's awesome. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Welcome, guys. This is asking for a neighbor. You guys have heard us before, so I won't give you the whole spiel, but my name is sky, and I'm here with Brad and Sean, pastors of rhc. So let's get into it. I think last time we talked about gambling a little bit. And I kind of just want to start off getting back into that because I had some questions for you guys on it. You guys just heard we usually have an icebreaker. I guess the icebreaker will be a little bit more intense. [00:15:08] Speaker C: But we just started talking and I was like, should we be recording this? And then apparently sky pressed the record [00:15:14] Speaker A: buttons already recording it was a great question about Brad. So. But I just wanted to ask you guys, we. I don't even know if we actually discussed this last time about gambling, but we were talking about regulations and things like that and how it's more prevalent in young adults now. And so I wanted to ask you guys if it's actually a government problem or if it's a different problem, like maybe parents problem or how do we. How do you navigate that? [00:15:37] Speaker C: The question you're asking is whether the government should be regulating it. Is that the question? [00:15:42] Speaker A: I think so. And I think that's the main. The main mainstream sentiment is does the government regulate this or not? [00:15:49] Speaker C: Well, I think they regulate it to an extent. Or maybe to be more clear, are you saying should the government should it be legal? Should the government step in and make it illegal? Right. [00:15:58] Speaker A: By regulation, I mean in some way keeping young adults from gambling. [00:16:03] Speaker C: What. [00:16:03] Speaker B: What form of gambling are you talking about? [00:16:04] Speaker A: Sports betting was specifically what we're talking about last time. Right. So I think just going along those same lines. [00:16:09] Speaker B: So we're not talking like the government regulates some sort of mandate where nobody can do any sort of like private poker betting or. [00:16:16] Speaker A: It's all there. All there. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay. You're including it all. [00:16:18] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Any of that stuff that you would consider government regulation should be included in the question, like, because my argument is usually against that. Zero government regulation. Yeah. Okay. [00:16:30] Speaker B: You're libertarian. [00:16:31] Speaker A: Zero. I'm not libertarian. I shouldn't say zero. Holy cow. That can go really wrong really fast. Less government regulation. [00:16:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker C: Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I'll try to be very brief, but I think some, just broad categories might be helpful. Okay. To think about. You mentioned libertarian. But just broadly speaking, when we're thinking of government in general, at least in modern times, we think liberal, conservative, liberal generally is for more government, bigger government, more programs to help society. That was a big deal in the early 20th century and has continued to be a big deal. Generally speaking, conservatives have been smaller government, less regulation, that kind of thing. So you would think that in this particular question, somebody, a conservative like myself, for example, might lean more towards saying we shouldn't have any regulation or minimal maybe is a better way to put it, what you're thinking. I do think that. And I would love Yalls feedback on this afterwards. I was thinking about it a little bit. I think that is more of a libertarian argument. And when it comes to libertarianism, when we're talking about economics or something like that, I'm going to lean much more in that direction. Free markets, a lot less regulation. And that's going to be what is most beneficial for the most people in society. History proves that out. But when you start getting into more. Not that there's not moral questions in economics. That's not what I'm saying at all. But more like social. Moral issues. Go ahead. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Do you mean like keep going? I think I know where you're headed. Just keep going. [00:18:15] Speaker C: So when we're talking about something that is specifically like that, gambling, for example, obviously there's economic components to that. What I'm saying is that it's a, at its core, a moral issue. Then I think a libertarian approach, that's where somebody like myself who's a conservative would probably depart more because libertarianism is at its Core, from what I understand, which I'm certainly not an expert, is more about human freedom as the primary thing. And so the individual's freedom to make decisions. When you're thinking of economics, that actually ends up being a really good thing. Because as soon as government tries to step in and regulate that or take control of it, all kinds of disasters come from that. It's much better if society as a whole, as individuals contribute and make decisions. It's actually a lot more fruitful. But when you get down to a, at its core, a moral issue, whatever, same sex marriage, abortion, all of these various things, not that every libertarian would be for those things, but the premise is the primary thing is the individual's freedom to make decisions. And that is obviously an important thing to an extent. But I think a more conservative argument, especially when we're thinking conservative, looking way back in American history, but even more foundationally as a biblical conservative, that the moral issue is more significant. So when we're talking about gambling, and I don't have the right answer here by any means, I'm just trying to think through the logical argument of it. I would say that there's more potential danger, morally speaking, to just allow free roaming. Roaming, that's not the right word. Free running, gambling, without any sort of regulation or minimal regulation that is going to do harm to a large quantity of people, to society as a whole. And I think that's true because we're dealing with moral issues at the core of what gambling is, and that's the same thing. We're dealing with marriage. Like we're as conservatives going to be very clear that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, that is a one man and one woman for life. And all of those various components that come with a biblical argument for marriage, not only because that's what the Bible says, but when we're speaking politically, because that's what's best for society and that comes from a moral grounding. That's a conservative argument. A libertarian at its core can't make that argument because it's the foundation is not a biblical morality, but an individual's autonomy and freedom. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Can you just real quick, can you articulate like what the moral, what are the moral ramifications for gambling that you're referring to? [00:21:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, why you say it's a moral issue? Yeah, I think because at its core gambling is. And this is where, you know, I think we get into a little bit, maybe more of the nuance, but the gambling at its core is. Getting at a desire for something that you don't have. That is. That's not the best way to put it. How would you define it? [00:21:49] Speaker B: Like gambling as a moral issue? [00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Oh, man, that's. I mean, I don't know that I have a definition right now off the top of my head. I'm kind of working through it as you're talking. Can we just say I know what I feel and I can just give you ideas based on what I think, but I don't think. [00:22:03] Speaker C: I think what it does in an individual and the desires that it drives, generally speaking, and we talked about this last time, does not produce good things. It produces all kinds of covetousness. It produces an addiction, generally speaking. But sky mentioned this last time. That doesn't happen across the board. So that's why we're saying. I'm not saying that gambling is in all, in all aspects, inherently morally evil. [00:22:32] Speaker A: And that's why someone would argue against you. [00:22:35] Speaker C: Against what? [00:22:36] Speaker A: Against what you're saying. They would, they would say like, well, it's not always bad. So we're going to have a. What kind of regulation would you say we need on gambling? [00:22:44] Speaker C: Well, that's why I'm saying. I'm just making a bigger, like 30,000 foot argument to say that if we go the route of I would generally lean towards little regulation. [00:22:57] Speaker A: If you do it on gambling, you think it would have societal ramifications? [00:23:01] Speaker C: It's obvious that it already does. Sure. The gambling has been legal for outside of Nevada and wherever in the Northeast for just a few years and it's wreaking havoc. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Well, so not even using the moral argument, you could literally just say, well, the societal ramifications are huge. Right. Because it's not wrong for me to scroll social media. But it is having ramifications on our kids. [00:23:20] Speaker C: No, but I'm, I'm, I think it's having those ramifications because of the moral elements of it. [00:23:26] Speaker A: But what about. Okay, interesting. So then I have a follow up question for that. Is that not similar to social media or are there moral ramifications? [00:23:34] Speaker B: Feels. It feels more. I'm totally on the same page with social media. Again, not a fan. Right, right. But I think the, the ramifications of the gambling, you know, in Nevada and et cetera, like places that it's actually taking place, I feel like are probably more quantifiable than they are with social media. [00:23:51] Speaker A: I see what you're saying. It's easier to look at data for the game. [00:23:54] Speaker B: I don't have the data in front of me, but like look at the crime rate. Look at the. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. [00:23:57] Speaker B: You know, I mean, you mean because [00:23:59] Speaker C: it's, it's available outside of just those places now that the data is more. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm saying you could probably look at data and see a societal decline where gambling is legal. [00:24:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I just, [00:24:15] Speaker A: that's, that's a good point. [00:24:16] Speaker C: Another like angle. I think this is where we need moral clarity and obviously we're struggling to bring crystal clarity to that. But something. Just think of sports, for example. The reality of gambling. Obviously it's been around before it was legal gambling. Yes. Oh, for sure, right. Obviously, like, you know, you think of all kinds of people that got into trouble for it. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Dude, gambling. [00:24:39] Speaker C: And they're even getting to trouble now for it. But what I'm saying is that it inherently undermines sports when people are betting. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah, but that can't be the moral issue. [00:24:51] Speaker B: Okay, so here, here's. [00:24:52] Speaker C: That is a moral issue. How is that not a moral mind of sports? [00:24:55] Speaker B: This is, this is, this is where this, this is where my mind goes. And I'm, I'm still, I'm struggling with a clear cut definition. But like it under. It undermines the creative man. Like the, the, what do you, what do we call it? The creative mandate. Genesis 1. Genesis 2. Genesis 2. Specifically when God plants Adam in the garden and he tells him to work it and keep it. Work is in. I mean it is intrinsic within who we are as made in the image of God. And so to me, gambling and work always conflict with one another. [00:25:25] Speaker A: Oh, is that what you're trying to say with sports, it's work? [00:25:28] Speaker B: No, no. I mean, that's what I'm saying. So I don't know how to put that into a clear cut definition. But I, One of my biggest issues with gambling especially, I'm not talking about one off, you know, once a quarter, getting out with your buddies and doing all that stuff that, that's assumed. But I'm talking about consistent. Like you create an account on FanDuel and you're consistently giving your money to this organization and spending your time doing this, that it undermines work. I don't think that it's of value to the society. I think you'd be more than hard pressed. I think it'd be impossible to prove otherwise. I don't think it helps a person. I don't think it helps our family. I mean it's, you know, there's no, there's nothing within it that advances the creation mandate that we've been Called to by God, which is to be workers and builders and to. To be salt and light. [00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:15] Speaker B: You know, on the earth, et cetera. Like, I think that's. For me, that's where I start to get into the moral element of it. Is. Is that. [00:26:23] Speaker A: So you don't think from a high level view that we should put more responsibility just on our families in general, the family unit? [00:26:30] Speaker B: I think we totally should. I was going to say from the beginning, I feel like the question could be. It's not, but I feel like it could be a false dichotomy. Like my persuasion is we ought to. [00:26:40] Speaker A: I'm dumb here. What does that mean? [00:26:41] Speaker B: Like to say, should it be government or should it be family? I'm saying it should be. It should be both. [00:26:46] Speaker A: I think, saying I think there ought [00:26:47] Speaker B: to be government regulations on gambling. [00:26:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:49] Speaker B: And I think that it's the primary responsibility of the parents of children of the next generation. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:56] Speaker B: To parent and disciple them in a way that gets into the below the surface moral ramifications of gambling. So it's not just, hey, don't do that. It's bad. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Sure. [00:27:08] Speaker B: But really gets to the heart at what we're talking about here, which is. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. So we can have the societal ramifications kind of squashed as well as having the. The family dynamic and the moral issue can be there. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Which for me goes back to the, you know, the most basic fundamental question like why. Why are we here? Why. Why are we on the earth? [00:27:27] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Training our kids in that creation to kind of a man. This is like our purpose is to know and enjoy God. Love him, Love him with all of our heart, mind, soul, strength. Love our neighbor as herself. Make disciples. Advance the kingdom of God. Like, this is why. This is why we're on the earth. And one of the means by which we acc. Accomplish that goal is work. And, and so, you know, spending our time doing something that. That diverts from that or undercuts that a way to make money without work. I. I don't like. I don't think it's good. [00:27:58] Speaker A: I see. [00:27:58] Speaker C: How do you. How do you square that with like investments? [00:28:02] Speaker A: That's what I was about to get. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Dude, that's a good question. I don't have an answer for that because I. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Because I was going to say, you know, you have. That's. [00:28:08] Speaker B: I think. [00:28:08] Speaker A: I think traders and they're doing it [00:28:10] Speaker B: and for sure, man, I. So it's a job. So again, if everything. If everything goes back to gamble. Right. [00:28:16] Speaker C: No, it's if everything. [00:28:18] Speaker B: Not. Not entirely. There's. [00:28:20] Speaker A: There's a joke. And that was. Yeah, yeah. [00:28:22] Speaker C: You're investing in. You're investing in a company. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:26] Speaker C: To help it be productive in society. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Developing a prod. [00:28:30] Speaker C: Make a product or a service. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Not always trading, though. Dude, the day trading. You're not even. Sometimes it's not even a company. Sometimes it's some fake thing they've created. [00:28:37] Speaker B: What else? Okay, so we. We have investments. [00:28:40] Speaker C: That's crazy. [00:28:40] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:28:41] Speaker A: What about. What is it called? Why can't I remember this? Oh, my gosh. NFTs. What about NFTs? You know, I don't even know. Digital art. What is that? You know, is that something we're investing in? You know, that's. [00:28:53] Speaker C: Let's try to. Let's try. [00:28:54] Speaker B: I think. I think that's investments. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:28:56] Speaker B: I think that if everything. If everything comes back to a matter of the heart. You could say the same thing about investments. You could say the same thing about social media. You could say the same thing about caffeine. You could say the same. You know, whatever. Whatever the thing is. Like, you know, yeah, investments could be the same as Internet gambling. If you're on it all the time, if it's diverting you from doing the work that God's called you to do. [00:29:17] Speaker C: I think that could be sinful in both of those cases. But I don't, And I don't know this, I don't want to be unclear, but investing is investing in something that actually has genuine value. And you're saying I'm investing in this company whether it's through a mutual fund and it's tons of companies, or day trading on. Yeah, you're maybe day trading. I'm not familiar. Sky, you know a ton about that. That might be closer to gambling. But generally speaking, I think investing is. You're investing in something that actually has objective value, whereas in gambling that's not the case. [00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, investment's a broad term. I'm glad you defined it. So that's your definition of investing. It's most people's definition of investing. I would say that's not sinful. It's not gambling at all. Right. [00:30:00] Speaker C: Yeah. It, of course, has moral. It has moral elements to it. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Of course. [00:30:04] Speaker C: Because you could be investing in a way that. Or like. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Like options. Right. [00:30:08] Speaker C: All your money is going to the Communist Party in China maybe. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:12] Speaker C: You know, but apparently they're good. [00:30:15] Speaker A: What is that, fist or whatever. Anyway, I agree with you, dude. I think because options are like betting on a company instead of Investing in it. It's kind of a separate thing, but it's still all under the same umbrella of investing. So that's a good, good clarification on that. Yeah, yeah, I think so. [00:30:28] Speaker C: Family. We didn't talk about family much, but I know we need to move on from gambling, but that I think we would all be unified. And I think this is right, that the things that we're talking about, we should not be relying on the government to tell us what's good and what's right. [00:30:41] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:30:42] Speaker C: We should be. The primary thing should be within the family, within the church. That. That is the primary thing that we're talking about. We probably shouldn't have spent most of our time talking about government. I think there's a place for regulation in government. I don't think it should be, you know, heavy handed. [00:31:02] Speaker A: I think I got you with that Russia, China thing and you were really on it. Government for a long time. [00:31:07] Speaker C: No, but I just. In all seriousness, the Christians specifically are primarily and especially in society the moral anchors, especially in our day, that we are anchored in a biblical morality. But even as a society maybe gets untethered from that more and more that doesn't. What I'm saying is that our focus and responsibility should be the home and the church. And yes, let's give voice to things that we think should be present in the government and in society, but let's not rely on that. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Well, yeah, you're muted, so you can open that and do whatever you need to do. [00:31:49] Speaker B: I'm just fiddling. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Oh, I thought you were opening it to get something. Do you need a drink earlier? You got it. Okay. [00:31:53] Speaker C: All right. For a second I thought you were reading me. [00:31:56] Speaker B: I still hear earlier I was looking for my phone because I wanted to look up a passage. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:01] Speaker B: But it's over there on the couch. [00:32:02] Speaker C: So it's the gambling passage. [00:32:04] Speaker B: The gambling passage. [00:32:06] Speaker A: Listen. Okay, that's funny. I was actually gonna say too. The reason I brought up social media was just to say that I kind of agree with government regulation on social media. [00:32:12] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. Okay. [00:32:13] Speaker A: So that kind of funny. [00:32:14] Speaker C: I want to hear what you think about that first, but I don't want to miss it. We're talking about government regulation primarily. I think the thing that we didn't talk about at all would be specifically for those who are most vulnerable, specifically youth and children. And you kind of mentioned that at the beginning, but then we just went on like really broad. [00:32:31] Speaker A: Right? [00:32:31] Speaker C: Yes, but that I think. Yes is more clear. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:37] Speaker C: I think the regulation side, when you get more broadly. I'm a little more murky on that, but. Sorry, keep going. [00:32:42] Speaker A: No, but as a parent. Speaking of that, as a parent, Brad, would you rather the government basically stepping into your kids lives early on to regulate them in some way, or would you rather be the one doing that? [00:32:54] Speaker B: I don't want the government to step in on anything. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Well, my point of saying it, I [00:32:58] Speaker B: just, I just mean with us as a family, I want the government to do. I want the government to do things that they're supposed to be doing for Romans 13. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:05] Speaker B: It's not what I'm saying. It's my job. [00:33:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Okay. So I frame that that way on purpose, provocatively. [00:33:12] Speaker C: But. [00:33:12] Speaker A: But the point is, is that your government will be regulating, you know, what the youth is doing with sports betting. And that might be a good thing. However, that does that impede on your, in your home, in your mind. Because you're like, well, my kid's not 18 yet and the government has regulations on my kid. But I guess it's the same thing as like drinking. Right? They already have a regulation on that. They can't do it. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm. I'm grateful for the government's regulation on gambling. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd be grateful for more. [00:33:36] Speaker A: So then you're saying since the sports betting thing happened and it's online and there's murky waters there, the government should step in more and be like, let's squash this whole problem we have with under 18. [00:33:47] Speaker B: I would. Yeah, I would prefer that. Yeah, yeah. [00:33:50] Speaker C: There's two different spheres I think we're talking about here. [00:33:53] Speaker B: I don't, Sorry. Let me just say one more thing. Yeah, I would prefer that, but as a parent, I'm not relying on that. I'm not waiting around for the government to step into that space and say, you absolutely can't do this. That's kind of the point that I was making is we always man, though imperfectly, like we always want to be discipling our kids into a biblical worldview so that they're able to think critically about the issue. It's not just a yes or no. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Or a moral black and white. It's. We want. I want you to think critically about what's what, what leads to this kind of consistent behavior and how do we, you know, paint a better, more beautiful option for them than, you know, Internet gambling? [00:34:33] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:34:33] Speaker C: Absolutely. And so I. Two broad things. When we're talking about government, we're certainly not talking about the government telling us what we can and can't do in our homes. But we're talking more broadly and we're saying we believe that just rampant gambling, to use an example, is not good for society. And so we're not saying government step in and just lay the hammer down, but we're just like with drinking, like we wouldn't want 12 year olds out going to the bar drinking. Like that's not sane. Right. That's not good. So we're saying that this is bad for society and therefore we're trying to make a moral argument saying that this is not good, especially for youth. That's not the same thing as saying, you tell me what I can and can't do in the home. Now, when it comes to the home, I think especially we're speaking pastorally, parents need to be more. You said it well last time, I think. Or maybe this was just a personal conversation. I think you were quoting somebody. If you think about it in a second you can say it. But we should be more intentional and more intense about what children are taking in in the home because they have access to the entire world. So a kid, a 12 year old kid having unfettered access to the Internet in our day, it was harder in the 90s. We had access to the Internet and we could get into some trouble. But the amount of trouble that you can get into now in the Internet, they can get your credit card and go spend $1,000 on gambling. Well, so they could get into some really bad websites. [00:36:11] Speaker B: Yes. Jonathan Hyatt, I think is the author of the Anxious Generation. And he says that children born after 1995 are more overprotected of the real world and more underprotected of the virtual world. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Right. And that was in the show notes for the last podcast too. [00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker C: Yes. So my final thoughts, and then I know we need to move on, is especially in the church, Christians should be way more concerned and engaged with what their children are intaking, both inside the home and outside the home. Not saying that you, you know, helicopter parent, however you want to phrase that, but aware that there is some call in intentionality that must be present to protect your kids from unfettered access to the Internet and to the world. Yeah, so that would be, that would be my. Brad, I would love to hear your final thoughts on this with five children. Maybe just on a practical level for the people listening, like what does that look like in your home as it [00:37:16] Speaker B: pertains to gambling or as it pertains to technology? [00:37:19] Speaker C: Internet. All of it. Yeah. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Because you're guiding your kids, but also I think the balance. I'm imagining the balance, and I've heard the balance of helicopter versus not is hard, obviously, because you have to, if you want to know, sometimes you have to be intrusive. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll just share our experience. Not as, not as a. You know, this isn't. This isn't gospel, but, man, we're not going to do phone. The kids aren't going to. Our kids aren't going to do phones for a really long time. They don't need a phone before they're 16 and they're driving. When they do turn 16 and they start driving, I don't think they need a smartphone. There are all sorts of options that are available now that come with directions and texting and calling and different things like that. And, and to Sydney and I, that doesn't. We don't. We're not, like, we're not paranoid. There are all sorts of things our kids are allowed to do and get into and explore, and we want to, we want to encourage all those things. We're still talking and wrestling through what it's going to look like to train them into in technology responsibly because they need. Like you said earlier, Sean, this is a part of. This is the reality that we live in. So we don't want to, like, we don't want to shun that or, you know, pretend like it doesn't exist. And, you know, they turn 18 and they don't. They don't know how to navigate the world. We're not, we're not going to do that. We just want to do it in a way that's responsible. There. There are kids on my kids, you know, sports teams that have iPhones that are 8. You know what I mean? That's not an uncommon thing. [00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:44] Speaker B: So, man, I think really, and this is kudos to Sydney, if and when Sydney listens to this, that, that she's really doing a good job of training them on the beauty of creation. Get outside, enjoy life, work, you know, learn to work with your hands, have fun, play sports, like, do these kinds of things so that it's not a matter again, of technology. Right. Wrong. It's. There's something more beautiful out there than being stuck to your phone all the time. And I do think it, you know, to maybe go a step. I don't know if it'd be a step further, Sean, than what you were saying. I thought that was really well articulated. Like, man, it's just the Internet. And again, not. We don't want to be fearful or Paranoid. The Internet is a really dangerous place for kids. And you. You read story after story after story of. Of some of the most vile, dark, disturbing things that are happening on the Internet to kids. And so I think as parents, it is, yes, it is absolutely your responsibility and mine for our kids to make sure that we're discipling in the ways of Jesus, that we're embedding within them a biblical worldview and that we're protecting them from people who want to harm them. And that ought to be like, they take that really seriously. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:08] Speaker A: That includes not having a phone to 16. That makes sense to me. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:40:11] Speaker C: And I love how you said also teaching them how to engage in the technology. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:17] Speaker C: That is. Is useful in life for so many ways. [00:40:20] Speaker A: You're gonna have to. Right. College kids now don't even know what they're gonna do when they graduate because those jobs can be taken away. [00:40:26] Speaker C: If you don't do that, then what we've seen, I mean, over generations, I feel like this has been. This was. This has been a common thing that I've heard. They're sheltered and then they go off into the real world and they're exposed to all these things and, you know, bad things happen. But if you're. It's not just about keeping these things from them. It's about understanding the dangers and the need for being discipled. And y' all do that very well. I see. I see the fruit of that in your children already, even at. At the ages that they are, the maturity in them and just being able to engage the world at the age that there are. We need more of that is my true final thought. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Shout out to Sydney and Brad. All right, guys, that was another long winded topic, but I really felt like it deserved more space, especially with trying to parent kids in today's technology and society. The next thing we would get. We'll get to is, I guess, similar on walking with people through something, but it's specifically for deconstructing Christians and how we might walk through life with them while they're deconstructing, if they are in our lives and what that even means. What is deconstruction? Maybe we can start with that and work our way into it. What do you think, Brad? What would you say? Just in general, I think you wanted to make some points about deconstruction, right? [00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah, man. It's a general word. So I think we had talked pre show about what do we even mean when we say that generally? So again, this is general one. It's a very sensitive issue because it's deeply personal for so many people. Whether it's like the person who asked the question, who knows somebody who's actually walking through this thing called deconstruction, or it's somebody who's actually doing it, it's super personal and incredibly painful. So want to be really careful not to overgeneralize any of these things. But I generally think about deconstruction in two ways. Number one, on a positive note, like, we should all be in a variety of ways. Like, we're students of the Word, we're students of history. And so there are things in all of us, like theology, things, like things that we believe about God or believe about the world that need to be deconstructed. Or maybe reconstructed would be a better way word to use. Like we deconstruct from something that isn't true, we reconstruct into something that is true. Right. So that's like on the positive side. On the negative side, what most people mean, I think, when they use the word is, is what the Bible calls apostasy. So there's a lot of this in the book of Hebrews and a lot of warning against this and encouraging Christians at that time to continue following Jesus because there were people within the church who were turning away from the faith. They were. They were denouncing Jesus and faith in Jesus. So I think that's what most people. Most people are talking about when they're talking about deconstruction are people who claim to be Christians or who say they're Christians and then they walk away from the faith. [00:43:28] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah, that's good. Clarification. Apostasy. Yeah, yeah, totally. [00:43:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Our core beliefs sometimes are wrong. Not, not like that can go the wrong way, but sometimes you're wrong in your belief and you need to change that. [00:43:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Pivot or whatever. So that makes sense. Sometimes we need to reconstruct those beliefs. Yeah. I think the question came in from someone that is literally walking through this with someone right now, like one of their friends has deconstructed. And so. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think there's a proverb, man. This is what I was going to look up on my phone. 20 maybe proverbs. 20. I don't know. Sean, you can fact check this, but Solomon talks about the heart of man being like a deep well. Okay. And he, he essentially says that the wise man draws it out, draws out that. Right. So that, that. That'd be the first thing that I would say again to which 1 Proverbs 20, verse 5. [00:44:27] Speaker C: The purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah, man. So I love that because it's just. Especially in a situation like this, your friend is deconstructing. They are thinking about or have walked away from the faith, just remembering that. Remembering that, you know, God has placed eternity within their heart. Their heart is like a deep well. And, you know, you have the opportunity, it's not your responsibility to know all the answers to what they need, because you don't. And so being a good friend oftentimes is this very slow, patient, prayerful, curious, drawing out of these deep waters within their heart in order to help them in a more helpful way. [00:45:13] Speaker A: Right? [00:45:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oftentimes you can just show up for that person and it doesn't necessarily mean you're pushing anything down their throat. You're just. You're just there. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:21] Speaker A: You know? [00:45:22] Speaker B: Yeah. You don't know why they're going through what they're going through. I mean, unless you ask a lot of questions and. And are very patient, prayerful in that. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Yeah. One of our. One of our. Like one of the members at our church has done this and come back, you know, like, there's a lot of that happen that happens, you know? And I mean, he. He obviously sees, like, now he's like, man, looking back, it's like, what was I even thinking? Kind of thing, you know? But. Yeah, I don't know. You just think everyone's hypocritical and. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Yeah. All sorts of reasons. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:50] Speaker C: Yeah. I think that it's also helpful when we're talking about deconstruction to understand there's a spectrum. Like, it's. It's not everybody, you know, questioning the Trinity or something like that. It's a lot of times it's coming from some sort of deep experience, like what you're. You're hitting on. And so I think we. The disposition that I have learned and am continuing to try to grow and learning more is that anytime there seems like there's something in this realm or on this spectrum to have an inquisitive disposition that I really want to know more about where this person's at, what it is they're actually thinking, and to better understand where they're coming from, both to genuinely understand, like, I want that heart disposition of why are we struggling with this? Where is this coming from? And also it helps them to better understand where they're coming from. I've seen that over and over again asking questions. And I've seen that people asking me questions. It's so helpful for me to be able to think about and try to articulate. Draws out that. Oh, draws out that understanding. There you go. And so I think that, number one is just when you're in that position, you're like, I don't know what to do. I think the default should just be to seek to know more about them. [00:47:17] Speaker A: That's like Brad's famous line, ask more questions. [00:47:19] Speaker C: Ask more questions. Yeah, that's a really good place to start. And then I think also from there, seeking to understand, are we dealing with something that is truly apostasy or are we dealing with something that somebody is just really struggling with? This area of Christianity. And it's more of a, let's work through this, obviously, let's work through it in either case, if they're willing to. But I'm saying one is much more concerning from an apostasy perspective, which means abandoning the faith. And the other one is maybe concerning, but it's a, it's less of a concern of separating themselves from the faith. And I think that trying to understand that and getting counsel from others is helpful. Like, I can think of somebody specifically in the church who walked through this with a dear friend of theirs. And it was clearly an apostasy situation. The individual was rejecting the Trinity and moving towards a non trinitarian, non biblical view of who God is. And that is obviously a terrible reality. And you're essentially saying, I don't worship the Christian God anymore, I worship a different God. They wouldn't put it in those terms, but that's a big deal. That's over here on the spectrum. Right. And on other situations, you've got people that are just dealing with difficult experiences. Church hurt. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Well, Brad, Brad talked about this obviously in his sermon series with Hebrews, but can you maybe just elaborate a little bit on maybe what happens with apostasy specifically? So like full on, I guess, deconstruction, if reason that word full on deconstruction. And like, what hope do these people have? And can you come back from that? Oh, man, those are good questions. [00:49:12] Speaker B: But that's what comes from really good questions, man. So so much of. Again, I think if you, if you, if you boil down the entirety of the book of Hebrews, you kind of get two points. You get one that Jesus is above all. So the Bible word is preeminent. Like he's, he's above all, he's in all. And then the second is for Christians, you know, follow Jesus into the end, knowing that it's God who's the one. God is the one keeping you, right? Like your. Our making it to the end in the Christian life, breathing our last breath, getting to heaven is not in any way going to be because of our strength to do so. It's because God is the one who's kept us throughout the entirety of our life. So that's like the hope, I think is if you're a Christian, you need not fear falling away. Like, I don't think the New Testament doesn't call us to walk around fearful like, what if I fall away? It's to put our hope in the promise of God to keep you to the end. Right? So, but the warning in the book of Hebrews is there were some in the church. And this is specifically mentioned in Hebrews 6, which is a really confusing passage, but I think it's simpler than it appears. Maybe at first reading is the author says something along the lines of, you know, anyone who has tasted the heavenly gift, you know, who walks away cannot be restored again to a place of repentance, basically is what he's saying. So at first reading it sounds like one. Is it possible for a Christian to lose their salvation? The answer to that is no, it's not possible. John, chapter 10. There are all sorts of places around that testify that no, it's not possible for a Christian. It's not. It. You will not lose your salvation, right? You didn't, you didn't earn it, so you can't lose it. So we said on Sunday, and. But that there are some within, there are some who claim Christ, who claim to be believers in Jesus, who will walk away. And you know, this is illustrated by Jesus in the parable of the soils. There are various kinds of soils or some who get really excited about the gospel, they get baptized, they join a church, they do all these things and for a variety of reasons, cares of the world or the sufferings of the world, they end up falling away. That, that is, I think what the author of Hebrews is talking about in chapter six. I think it's, it's, it's a, it's in reference to the parable of the soils that there are some among you who are going to fall away. And it's not because they lost their salvation. And so his encouragement to all of the church is to keep going, like, keep pressing on through all of that. [00:51:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think you, I think you kind of nailed those. [00:51:52] Speaker B: I forget, I forget. Sorry, dude. I lost. I lost Your question somewhere. [00:51:56] Speaker A: That was a good starting point. That was a good starting point. [00:51:57] Speaker C: And the imagery of the parable of the soils is so helpful in my mind, like thinking of the pictures of what Jesus is talking about. You know, I think the first one is they sow the seed and it's on rocky ground, and the devil snatches it up immediately so that somebody, you know, hears, bounces off of them. They don't receive the message of the gospel. The next one, I think it's rocky ground, maybe a little bit shallow soil, maybe the roots go down a little bit, there's a little bit of growth. So on the surface it seems like, oh, this is healthy plant. Like, the plant's growing, but it doesn't have any roots. And so, you know, things happen in the world, things happen in their life, and they fall away on and on until you get to the good soil where there's deep roots and. And true life and growth. But the imagery is helpful there because on the outside, to us, when we're looking at the plant that's growing, all we can see is the surface. We can see that there's some growth there. God knows the heart. And so when we're talking about a Christian not losing their salvation, we're talking about somebody who's truly been converted by the grace of God, who has the Holy Spirit in their heart. They no longer have a heart of stone. They have a heart of flesh. They are children of God. They're Jesus's sheep who hear his voice, as he says in John, what Brad was talking about. And so that is a reality that we as Christians can know and experience and have that assurance. But when we're talking about an individual that on the outside looks like they have an emotional response or whatever it is they seem to believe, but in the end, walk away, they're proving that they weren't actually converted from the inside. That's a hard thing to explain. [00:53:47] Speaker A: That was the next question. [00:53:48] Speaker C: That was the next question in First John. John talks about this as well in his epistle in chapter two, when he's talking about specifically this is in reference to false teachers. And that's he's talked about in chapter one how they've essentially rejected the physical reality of Jesus. And John is highlighting this in chapter one, and in chapter two, he says he's referring to these false teachers. They went out from us because they were never of us, otherwise they would have remained with us. And being the apostolic tradition, the apostolic teaching, the true biblical teaching, they looked like they were of them initially. They thought they were part of them, but then they started teaching these heretical things, and they left the apostles. So that's a good example of. At one point, it looked like on the surface that these were genuine believers, but time will tell what ends up, what is actually in the heart. [00:54:41] Speaker A: It's probably very hard to hear for some people. But you're saying, just to sum it up really quickly, you can do yes or no if you want. If you're deconstructing and you're falling away from that in apostasy, you would likely argue that they probably were not saved to begin with. [00:54:58] Speaker C: That's why I'm saying there's a spectrum of deconstruction that I think I want to be careful with. I would not say anybody that would be in this deconstruction place that they're not Christians. I would not say that. But I would say, for example, the individual who has rejected the Trinity, understands what the Scriptures teach, believes that it teaches this Unitarian position and is rejecting the biblical God. And it's a clear rejection that is an apostasy. That individual was not converted, is not converted unless they repent and believe upon Jesus. That is clear. That's clear. [00:55:32] Speaker A: No, that's a good clarification, though, because I think some people out there will be listening, and they'd be like, my friend going through deconstruction, you know, she just thinks we're hypocritical or whatever. She doesn't have a apostasy. Apostate. What do you call that? [00:55:43] Speaker C: Apostasy. [00:55:44] Speaker A: But yeah, but what is the. She doesn't have a apostasy view or whatever. It doesn't matter. We can move on. I'm not. [00:55:50] Speaker B: I think that's helpful, man. I mean, I had a friend, so actually, one of the guys who discipled me in college was on staff at a church, and man just, like, went to his pastors one day and was like, I don't believe in the Resurrection. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Oh. [00:56:03] Speaker B: And so he left the church, left the faith, like, so that, again, to coincide with what Sean's saying, is a clear example of what, you know, when we say these quote unquote, harder things, you know, they went out among us because they were never of us. It's in reference to. I think it's in reference to more so that certainly than it is with somebody who is like, I'm struggling to believe. I'm struggling to believe that this is true. I'm struggling to believe that God is good. Yeah, like, that's a pretty normal Christian. [00:56:33] Speaker A: Everyone feels That I don't even think [00:56:34] Speaker C: we should put that in the category. [00:56:36] Speaker B: It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be in the category. For sure. [00:56:38] Speaker A: That's gonna be the next thing. [00:56:38] Speaker B: I've nowhere close to that. [00:56:40] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:56:42] Speaker B: So. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Because I have the same thing, like resurrection, obviously I believe in it. But, like, sometimes you're thinking like, man, how did this happen? And you want to know more. Right. And you want context and you look at evidence outside the Bible or whatever. I do that. And I think that that's like. I think that's normal. I don't know, curiosity or whatever. And then also sometimes you doubt your own faith. You're like, man, am I really? You know what I mean? That happens. [00:57:02] Speaker C: Yeah. And the people struggling with certain realities in the Scriptures that are significant, like struggling to believe that the Bible is the word of God, for example, and that there. Or that there's large, you know, sections of it that aren't true or something like that. I would not put that person in the category of apostasy, necessarily, depending on what that leads to in their belief. But either way, even if it's like, okay, they're struggling with that and they believe that these things are like the resurrection's true and the Incarnation and all in the crucifixion for sins, I would still be concerned because that is a. Again, if we're thinking of it as a spectrum, if we're not grounded in the realities of the truthfulness of the Scriptures, of the truthfulness of God in the reliance of His Word, I think that can be a dangerous place. That can be a sinking sand that could lead to more serious concerns. Rejection of the resurrection, rejection of the Trinity, rejection of the bodily resurrection, all these various things, the Incarnation, that are essential Christian doctrines. That's where I would say I would be concerned. But I wouldn't put them in the category of somebody that's rejected, that's clearly made an articulation of. I reject the resurrection. Here's why I don't believe this is true. And a lot of the times, even this person I'm talking about in the church that has been walking through this painful process with somebody for a few years, that individual thinks they're a Christian still, and that individual wants to treat their friends still as a Christian. But this faithful brother who's walking through this has had to be very clear, like, I love you and I want what's best for you, but you are not my brother in the faith. [00:58:53] Speaker A: So you don't. [00:58:54] Speaker C: You are rejecting the Trinity. This is found, this it's like. It's like telling your wife, like, I love you and I do care about you, but then going over here and, you know, engaging with somebody else and being like, no, I still love you. No, you're. You're. You're loving a different person, man. [00:59:13] Speaker A: I guess I thought. I thought the Unitarian thing was like, a gray. Like, I thought that was secondary, a secondary issue. It's not. That's primary. [00:59:21] Speaker C: Well, define what you think Unitarian means first. Maybe there's a confusion. [00:59:25] Speaker A: Trinity is just one thing. They're all one. There's one person. [00:59:31] Speaker C: What's Unitarianism in your mind? [00:59:33] Speaker A: Is that it? That's. That's what it was. You don't have the. You don't have the Trinity as your view. [00:59:37] Speaker C: Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. [00:59:38] Speaker A: God is God, and that's it. [00:59:39] Speaker C: So. [00:59:40] Speaker A: So, like, I guess I don't know where that goes with Jesus and all of that, but that's all I thought. I haven't really researched it, but this is great. [00:59:45] Speaker C: I'm glad you bring this up, because this is really important. Wave. Because it's Sometimes we. It is. And it's sometimes nuanced and difficult to identify. Is this a core issue that would put it in the realm of apostasy like the Resurrection and the Trinity? There are certain things that are very clear. There's other things, you know, maybe that we could have some disagreement and argue with as to whether this is that kind of issue. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Sure. [01:00:06] Speaker C: The Trinity is, in my opinion. I'd love to hear Brad's feedback on this as well, because it's. It's. It is talking about the God that we worship. So trinitarian theology is coming from the scriptures that talk about God being one in essence, but that exists eternally as three distinct persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There's not three Gods. There's one God, but that exists eternally as three distinct persons. And there's ample evidence for that. Unitarianism is saying that no God is both one in essence and one in person. And there's different forms of Unitarianism that. That might. And historically there's been different forms that. That maybe sometimes God presents himself as Father, presents himself. That's called modalism, as the Son, and then at different times, as the Spirit. That's. But it's still one distinct person. They're not three distinct persons within the Godhead. [01:01:07] Speaker A: That's a. [01:01:07] Speaker C: That's a different God. Yeah, so that's why it's a. That's why it's a key issue. [01:01:11] Speaker A: Sean the scholar throwing all these phrases at me. I don't know. [01:01:15] Speaker B: Now, you know. [01:01:16] Speaker A: Brad, what do you think, though, about [01:01:18] Speaker B: what Sean just said? [01:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. You agree it's like, all of it. Yeah. So if they are a Unitarian person, then you're like, what the heck? [01:01:23] Speaker C: You know, that just made me think of. Is that a Biggie Small song. [01:01:27] Speaker B: Which one? [01:01:27] Speaker C: Now, you know, if you don't think [01:01:29] Speaker A: there's a bad thing, there's. [01:01:30] Speaker C: Now, you know, I think there's a bad word that comes after. [01:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah, just the N word. Yeah. Unfortunately. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I wasn't gonna say that, but all right. Yep. [01:01:38] Speaker A: That is. [01:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with all that. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:01:42] Speaker B: Wow. [01:01:42] Speaker A: That's awesome. Holy cow. [01:01:44] Speaker C: It's hard. [01:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You answer the next question. The next question was going to be like, what is it? The specific. What is. [01:01:50] Speaker B: It's not unloving to tell somebody who's deceived that they're not a Christian. That is the loving thing to do. [01:01:56] Speaker A: Wow. [01:01:56] Speaker B: Okay. That's a good. And to do it. To do it in a gentle, kind, loving, I care about you way, you know? [01:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think coming back around to that, we've discussed how we can walk through some. Walk through it with someone. I think that's what we should leave people with. You know, just. Just tell them in a loving way that maybe you weren't a Christian to begin with. [01:02:18] Speaker B: Well, man, I. I don't even. That, you know, that statement is hard. That's a hard. You know, you. [01:02:23] Speaker A: I wouldn't be able to say that because. [01:02:25] Speaker B: Well, here's like, here's the thing, too, man. Like, I. I mean, what Sean's describing is very clear external evidence. When somebody is. Is vocally rejecting the. The clear teaching of the Bible, that. That's clear. Right. But there's. There are so many other cases that it isn't that crystal clear. So we can't see inside somebody's heart. We. We are not the final determiners of anybody's salvation. It's not within our authority or right to. To say, you know, again, I'm excluding these very. These very clear circumstances that Sean's talking about where we can say, because of what you're professing to believe, you are not a Christian. Right. You can't be a Christian and believe what you believe about God. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Right. [01:03:10] Speaker B: That's a different scenario. But we're talking pastorally with our sister who asked this question about her friend we know nothing about. Right. And so, man, first of all, I just. I was thinking about this last night. I love the people of rhc. And I'm so proud of them for so many reasons. But the questions that are asked are just so, like, our people are engaging with people, you know, like, they really want to disciple people in their life. They want them to know Jesus. It's just, it's. It's. It makes me so proud. So commend the question asker for the question. And then second, these things came to mind. Pray, obviously, and I'm certain this person is. Pray expectantly that God can actually move in this person's heart. Pray patiently, meaning that we don't know the timing in which God's going to do what he's going to do in this person's life. But pray expectantly that God can and will do it. And then like we talked about earlier, ask a ton of questions, which, again, I'm certain this person's doing. But just, you know, going to these conversations. Going into a conversation with curiosity allows stress to diminish from you because you no longer feel the weight of having to navigate the conversation a certain way. If I go into a conversation with somebody and I'm like, I need to get them to this point. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Borderline manipulation. [01:04:33] Speaker C: It's. [01:04:34] Speaker B: It's manipulate. You certainly do manipulate. Right. But. But secondarily, it's very stressful. [01:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:39] Speaker B: You know, because you're like, oh, my gosh. You just feel this weight of having to lead them. But if you go into it and you just ask questions like to try to understand what's going on, nine times out of ten, I leave the conversation. I'm like, well, I was wrong about what I assumed about that person. Like, almost mo. Most of the time that's the case. [01:04:58] Speaker A: Like, oh, my gosh. [01:05:00] Speaker B: So asking a lot of curious questions. And then, you know, we. And I said this on Sunday, but, you know, all of us ought to be reading our Bible, not just for ourself, but for the sake of ministry. [01:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:10] Speaker B: So, you know, as we spend time in God's Word studying. Sean's really good about this, but, man, like, study Christian history and know theology, like, know. Know these various beliefs so that when it is an appropriate time to speak, we're able to do so in an informed and helpful way to these things. [01:05:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:05:32] Speaker C: And for somebody that's, again, we don't know this specific context for this individual. But if it, if it is something that maybe is, again, like the example that I'm giving with somebody that is in the church that's been walking through this to really prayerfully consider and think about as you're reading the Scriptures, as you're again seeking to love this person, asking questions and seeking to understand them once you have clarity, if it is something that is at the level that we're talking about, that would seem to indicate that this person is not a Christian or is moving in that direction, maybe. Oftentimes it's not black and white, Right? It's a movement. What I'm getting at is what is the most loving thing in an example, in a situation where somebody's clearly rejecting the God of the Bible, the God who we're saying is the. The most amazing thing in the world that has sent his son to redeem sinners and is the one who is our hope and our joy and all of these things, like the most loving thing is to clearly articulate that. Not to just say that they're clearly unbelievers, right? But to say, no, we want you to know the true God. I can't affirm you in this because I'm affirming you in something that is leading you away from. From the truth, and the truth is for your good. And so that's what I'm saying is that is the most loving thing. This brother I'm talking about who didn't just go into the conversation and say, you're not my brother anymore, but with tears and through conversation and through the timing being right, because that individual is wanting to maintain fellowship on a Christian level with him. It was the loving thing to do, to clearly articulate, I want you to be my brother, but you are not if you are rejecting the God that we worship. And that was the most loving thing for that individual to hear. So, yes, it's hard. Yes, it's difficult. And those situations come up, especially if we're seeking to be faithful in having these conversations. They're going to come up. But my big takeaway here, although I'm wanting to communicate, is consider deeply what is the most loving and best thing for this individual? Sometimes that's calling them out in a very difficult thing. [01:08:03] Speaker A: Wow. Good conversation, guys. That's awesome. [01:08:07] Speaker B: Can I say one final thing? Go ahead. We talked about, like, if there is a person listening who is walking through this themselves. And again, there are all sorts of reasons people struggle with Christianity and. And things. It is a. It's a common one that there's been some sort of, like, church hurt or, you know, you see Christian leaders doing terrible things or whatever like that. That response to those kinds of things is normal and oftentimes appropriate to be, you know, just like I Can't believe this, you know, kind of a thing. Or I'm hurt by this Christian. And so it makes sense that then the response to that or the reaction to that could be one of the. I don't even know if I can trust this thing. And so pastoral encouragement, man, is like, just to keep your eyes on Jesus, like, continue to make the person of Jesus the focal point of your mind in your life. You know, we have this tendency to look across the church and then superimpose our experience with other Christians upon who God is. And we can't do that. And I do think that that's often what you see the author of Hebrews going back to time and time again is reminding them, this is who Jesus is. He's never going to let you down. There's nobody better than him to give your life to and to follow. This is what he's done for you. He's laid his life down and died on the cross for you. Loves you in a way nobody else ever could. He rose from the grave, he's coming again. And so keep your eyes on him and trust that he's going to be the one to keep you to the end. And then stay in Christian community. So we're all humans. [01:09:43] Speaker C: We're all. [01:09:43] Speaker B: We're all in process. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to hurt one another. And just because those things happen doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and be like, I'm done with Christians. Like, you're just as flawed. Like, we're all just as flawed, you know, as those who have harmed us in those ways. And so I think, you know, committing to stay in community with other Christians. [01:10:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:05] Speaker A: And if they're curious, that's just curiosity, you know, And I don't want people to confuse their curiosity with not being a Christian. [01:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:12] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. One final thought and then one question for Brad. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Okay. All right. [01:10:17] Speaker C: And then we'll close. [01:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, Just a longer podcast, man. It's okay. [01:10:20] Speaker A: No, it's a. We got through a lot. I love it. [01:10:21] Speaker C: So. I love what you said, Brad, about keeping our eyes on Jesus. And that made me think of something that I've wrestled with at times. And I know there's people out there that have wrestled or are wrestling with this. And that's the reality of the brokenness of the church. Brokenness of the people in the church. Especially when there's a lot of high profile failures and personal hurt within the church, all those things. And it's. Understandable and totally okay to be wrestling with that. One of the things I want to highlight is that I've seen, as we keep our eyes on Jesus, that actually grows our love and affection for the church, as broken and flawed as the church is. And the reason that is is because we see how much Jesus loves his bride. We see this in the book of Hosea in the Old Testament, God, the reality of God essentially being this faithful husband and his people, Israel being a very unfaithful spouse and him continuing to pursue them. And we see that beautifully and most perfectly in the person of Jesus. And so as we keep our eyes on Jesus, that does not minimize the hurt that is found within the church and the struggles that are present, but it does give you a deeper sense of a love for the church because of how much Jesus loves his bride and loves his church. And so, yes, let's wrestle with the emotional piece of it. Let's walk through it. Let's be very patient with people who have experienced hurt within the church. But let's each individually, as we set our eyes on Jesus, prayerfully ask the Lord to give us a heart and love for the church like he has it. That's my final thought. Brad. [01:12:11] Speaker A: Amazing. [01:12:13] Speaker C: In light of all this conversation that we're having, tying these things together the best you can in a way that presents the gospel to the listeners in less than two minutes, preach the gospel. [01:12:28] Speaker B: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He created all things. He created people as the pinnacle of his creation, the masterpiece of his creation in his image for a full, bona fide, robust, joyful relationship with himself and one another through the rebellion of our first parents, Adam and Eve, and every human. After choosing being born in sin and choosing to sin, we've been eternally separated from God, unable to fix this or mend this chasm on the basis of anything that we do. But God in love, when the fullness of time came, sent forth His Son, Jesus. He was born under the law to redeem those who were under the law, so that any who believe in him might receive adoption as sons. So God so loved the world who had turned away from him that he sent his only Son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but would have eternal life. We're actually brought back into that relationship with God through believing in Jesus, repenting of sin, and believing in Jesus. And one day he's going to come again. He's going to make all things new. So keep going. Don't lose heart. Keep your eyes on Jesus. Trust that he's going to see through one day. He's going to come back and make everything right. [01:13:42] Speaker C: Praise God. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Praise God. Yep. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we will talk to you guys later. [01:13:48] Speaker B: China.